MobileRead Short Story Anthology - [DISCUSSION & REVIEW]

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

It's not necessary anymore to read my version 1.1.

I'll actually call the next version 2.0 because of Elani's and Koryna's rewrite.

I didn't read this post in time (I deliberately avoid looking at other comments on the stories before I review). I won't post my full review, but I will add some thoughts based on my reactions to v1.1 ...


I think you overuse ellipsis and semi-colons (I tend to as well, so I know what it looks like ). Keep in mind that an ellipsis is generally an extended pause, a stuttering pause is probably better given by other forms of punctuation. For example an em-dash is often used for things cut-off, but even a comma or fullstop/period may be more appropriate in some of your examples. Use the semi-colon only where you must - I see a few good uses in your text, or what I think are good, but I also see some not so good uses.

My own preference is not to quote thoughts as if they're dialogue, I find that can get confusing when thoughts are mixed near dialogue. Others differ, obviously, but something to consider.

You over-explain things. Learn to trust your reader more. This is another one I am still trying learn, but it's critical you get this or everything comes over too long-winded.

Spoiler:

In fact, in v1.1, you explain so much that there is absolutely not surprise in what's coming, I'm not sure if you intended there to be.

Of course, finding the right balance between what needs to be explained and what doesn't is - I think - one of the big things that separates good writers from the rest. It's also one of those things that leaves some readers behind in some stories, but does a better job of grasping others, because different people have different levels of comprehension, and different levels of matching the author's train of thought.

Your over-explaining also spills over into some of your dialogue, so in some places it gets too heavy/explicit, and in other places melodramatic rather than dramatic.

I think there is a good story here, but I'm not sure it's something that will make a good short story - whereas as an element of novel I think it might work better. I will be curious to see what you do with it in the next version.

ETA: A short story needs to kick off quickly. In version v1.1 I think you could have started at the second "chapter" without losing anything.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by gmw

My own preference is not to quote thoughts as if they're dialogue, I find that can get confusing when thoughts are mixed near dialogue. Others differ, obviously, but something to consider.

I agree if by this you mean using quotes to delimit the thoughts. Thoughts can be expressed just as plain text, with a 'she thought' added if it's unclear from the context.

There's a whole other discussion about when, if ever, to put thoughts into italics.

I think it depends on the story and how deep you've pushed the point of view into the protagonist's head.

Spoiler:

In Katsunami's story, clearly we need two different ways of deliming thought. One for Elani, and one for when she hears Lady Ariana. Italics work well for the latter, and I'm comfortable with putting the brackets round them as well. That immediately gives the sense of it being a separate event inside Elani's head.

Bear in mind too that if your protagonist usually thinks in normal, unquoted text, then you can go to italics for a particularly emphatic thought.

Graham

[Graham]

Originally Posted by gmw

ETA: A short story needs to kick off quickly. In version v1.1 I think you could have started at the second "chapter" without losing anything.

That's a very good observation.

Spoiler:

All Elani's thoughts in the first scene could be encapsulated in a moment of doubt over whether to knock on Marlena's door.

Graham

[gmw]

Originally Posted by arjaybe

v1.1

"His eyes were already looking down." You need this to set up the rising scan. You could set it up by having him looking down at his beer during the previous paragraph's ruminations.

That is something I tried when I first wrote it, I just never got it to work smoothly for me.

Originally Posted by arjaybe

I'm seeing quite a few sentences that should be two sentences, or need to be altered to make them work as one. It bothers me, but if it's an accepted style then I'll drop it.

It's only accepted style if enough readers accept it.

More seriously, I know there are some less than simple sentences in there, and I have been known to splice sentences on occasion, but I didn't notice any specific problem ones in this (which doesn't mean they're not there). If you have specific examples I'd be pleased hear them.

Originally Posted by arjaybe

Is the doorman's alcove inside?

Yes. The paragraph opens with a description of the inside, which seemed enough without having to say it again. The change in phrasing from the earlier version was actually in the hope of satisfying your concern with regard to the doorman ... it seems I have not.

Spoiler:

Having the cab right outside the door is good. We'll remember it at the end.
You cleared up the itch and physical presence well.

I'm pleased these changes have worked.


Has Vera taken Gavin's glass to the kitchen, then returned to pour drinks?

What kitchen? There's a drinks cabinet in the main room, no ever goes to the kitchen.


Where was Coop "Only gone for one night?"

Does it matter? They know the apartment has to be vacant for the itch to happen, so he leaves until it does. You can be sure he doesn't go any further than he needs to.

Thanks for going over it again. Time I returned the favour.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Graham

Spoiler:

In Katsunami's story, clearly we need two different ways of deliming thought. One for Elani, and one for when she hears Lady Ariana. Italics work well for the latter, and I'm comfortable with putting the brackets round them as well. That immediately gives the sense of it being a separate event inside Elani's head.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure that element (the goddess speaking in her mind) is a good idea - except possibly at the very end. When it occurs earlier it becomes obvious that the goddess is speaking with her and nothing after that is any sort of surprise. It's unclear how much of a surprise it would have been anyway, but those italicised thoughts remove all doubt.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by gmw

Spoiler:

I'm not sure that element (the goddess speaking in her mind) is a good idea - except possibly at the very end. When it occurs earlier it becomes obvious that the goddess is speaking with her and nothing after that is any sort of surprise. It's unclear how much of a surprise it would have been anyway, but those italicised thoughts remove all doubt.

Spoiler:

That's true. I'm looking forward to seeing how Kat handles this in v2.

Graham

[Graham]

Originally Posted by mrmarlowe

When My Father 'Died' - v.1-7 is up now - I can hardly wait for all the critics here to jump right in.

I added an extra line at the end; if Sir Graham doesn't like it I can delete it.

You've moved the Zant sub-plot round well, and fed it into the story more naturally. The story as a whole feels more balanced because of it.

However, I've still got a fair number of thoughts about the ending.

Spoiler:

Although I think the dream ending is working better now, please don't misunderstand me. I still think the story shouldn't end with 'it's all a dream'. Basically the reader thinks he is reading a ghost story. To be satisfying, the ghost story itself should come to a satisfying conclusion. If it does, then there is no need to have an 'it's all a dream ending' afterwards.

However, if it's not possible to tie up all the loose ends in the main ghost story, and you still want to have the dream ending, then the dream ending needs to either tie up the loose ends or at least give the feel of tying them up.

The changes you've made to the dream ending are improving it, but it needs to be tighter. I think there are two things that you could do:

1. Remove the references to vitamin pills. The reference to hunger is enough to explain the bad dreams, and ties in with the events of the dream nicely. I'm not a fan of the barley and farting lines. I can see how you're trying to link the barley in the rice with the pinda in the shradh sequence, so I think it's OK to reference rice with barley - particulary if you can mirror a phrase from the shradh sequence - but maybe don't overload it.

2. Instead of using comments about the shradh when he's waking up, try using the unresolved element of the ghost story, i.e. the contracts. The last thing that happens in the dream before he wakes up is Zant asking him about the contracts. Do you think it would be better to have him waking up muttering something about contracts, contracts, I'll get to the contracts?

His mother could ask him 'what contracts?' and he could mention the shradh, and you can do your reveal that it's just a dream.

This would give us a feeling of closure to the contracts sub-plot. You could resolve it further if there was a task awaiting him in the real world that involved paperwork.

Are you able to write (no need to share it unless you want to) a short summary of the son's circumstances when he went to bed hungry the previous night? What was preying on his mind? Is he anxious about something? Is there paperwork or a job that needs doing that he's been putting off? Does his father love him or not? Where does his father normally sleep? Why did he go to bed hungry?

My gut feeling is that you need to know the real things in the son's life that trigger this anxiety dream if you want to use the dream ending. Once you know those you'll be able to write an ending that satisfies us.

I don't think seeing the chopper knife on the bed makes sense. That suggests that it wasn't all a dream, but we know from the mother's comments that it was.

Graham

[gmw]

The changes you've made since v1.0 are fairly subtle but effective, I think. Even just the smoothing out of that second paragraph has improved the readability of the early part. The confrontation scene seemed better this time, but I'm concerned this is partly because I knew what was coming (I've found this same trouble, you can only get someone's first impression once).

At just over a 1000 words this is what I think they refer to as flash fiction: a brief but complete story with much left unsaid - left to the reader's interpretation/imagination. Taken in that light, I think it works quite well.

One minor thing that tripped me up on this second read:

Spoiler:

Annie backed across the kitchen floor - It wasn't clear we had made it into the kitchen, unless all the bedroom doors open onto the kitchen.

As a reader, I'm not a big fan of flash fiction. As a writer I can appreciate it, but can't seem to do it myself (or not so far). The reader in me would still like to see more meat on the story - in which case my earlier comments are mostly still applicable.

[Graham]

Hi gmw. Here's a pile of line edit comments. As always, take whichever make sense to you.

Spoiler:

She leaned forward. Gavin liked that. "What do you suggest?"

This is just slightly confusing enough as to who is speaking to break the flow, since Gavin is mentioned just before the spoken dialogue. Even just breaking her dialogue onto the next line would help.

"I got a thing for the fifties," Gavin continued. And he does.

Should this be 'And he did'? In the next sentence you write, 'but he loved old fifties stuff'.

"Not the cheap kitsch they sell these days," he explained, in case she got the wrong idea, "the good stuff."

My gut feeling is that it should be "The good stuff." I think if you didn't have the attribution in the middle, that would have been, "Not the cheap kitsch they sell these days. The good stuff."

There were only four apartments up here.
Gavin waited for her to close the apartment door behind them

Two uses of 'apartment' very close to each other, with two more only a paragraph later, then three in the same paragraph a little way further.

Gavin guessed the man was in this forties somewhere

Typo. Should be 'his' forties.

It was set up for a man, there was no sign that a woman lived here

While I'm mostly happy with your use of commas to divide what could be cast as two separate sentences, this one does bother me, and I'd prefer it separated with a period. It really felt like the first part was emphatic. 'It was set up for a man.'

except that it was very tidy

I'm not sure this will work for all readers. I'd have believed 'except that it was very clean' better. I've generally found men living alone to be tidier than women.

but this was getting creepy. "I'm getting out of here," Gavin said

Two 'gettings'.

Cooper grasped him by the arm, it was a strong grip.

Another slightly jarring use of the comma. Perhaps consider a semicolon, or breaking it into two sentences, or, 'Cooper grasped him strongly by the arm.'

"Exactly, What?,"

It's not instantly clear that he's changing 'Twat' to 'What', and the question mark immediately followed by the comma looks odd. I think this has to be punctuated either as "Exactly. What?" or "Exactly. 'What?',"

"Yeah, right. Pull the other one, it plays Jingle Bells." Gavin snorted into his glass.

Does he snort after saying all that? Consider flipping the attribution to the front?

"This place?" Gavin asked, he wasn't totally out of it yet.

This felt a little odd. Consider, 'Gavin asked, not totally out of it yet.'

door closed the prick starts ranting. Vera tried to soothe him

'starts' and 'tried' feel wrong so close. It feels to me that the tense should be consistent here, even though this is reported speech. The rest of this is in a past tense, so I feel that 'started' would be better.

that first night's are special

Misplaced apostrophe. Should be 'first nights are special'.

Gavin asked, his tongue seemed

This is another one where I'd prefer a period instead of the comma. In this case, because the second clause could genuinely be a continuation of Gavin asked, but would be worded differently if so (as something like 'Gavin asked, his tongue seeming to to have trouble').

He realised his eyes were closed and wondered how long they had been like that.

I think this needs a 'he' before 'wondered'. (At the moment it's the eyes doing the wondering.) Or possibly just add a comma after 'closed'.

He called her Sophie and frowned slightly, that wasn't the right name.

The comma use jarred for me here too. It's too important a part of the story to risk that. Please could you consider using a period, or adding 'as', or even using an ellipsis here instead of the comma? The ellipsis would also support the feeling of going under.

and stain the lounge.

My reaction was 'the whole lounge?' Perhaps consider 'the carpet' or 'the couch'.

to be more careful not to let his impatience

Do you need the 'more'?

If you didn't give them enough of the truth then it, whatever it was, didn't take, Vera would fade and you had to start all over again with another one, and sometimes it took a month or more before the itch would come back.

Long sentence. Perhaps consider a period before 'Vera'?

for quite a small fee

Do you need the 'quite'?

would remember anything of this place then, some did.

For me, this would make sense more immediately with an 'as' before the 'some'.

I'm a con man and the thief

Typo? Should that be 'a' thief?

Graham

[mrmarlowe]

When My Father 'Died' - v.1-8 up now. I made a few changes, but

Spoiler:

Kept the chopper knife ending, still. Purpose to make the reader keep 'guessing': 'Was it? Or was it not?' a dream. Still mulling over whether to end the story at the point where Zant asks for the contract - or not

It's just that I am a huge fan of open endings. But let's see what others have to suggest on it. Thx for your input, as always.

Originally Posted by Graham

You've moved the Zant sub-plot round well, and fed it into the story more naturally. The story as a whole feels more balanced because of it.

However, I've still got a fair number of thoughts about the ending.

Spoiler:

Although I think the dream ending is working better now, please don't misunderstand me. I still think the story shouldn't end with 'it's all a dream'. Basically the reader thinks he is reading a ghost story. To be satisfying, the ghost story itself should come to a satisfying conclusion. If it does, then there is no need to have an 'it's all a dream ending' afterwards.

However, if it's not possible to tie up all the loose ends in the main ghost story, and you still want to have the dream ending, then the dream ending needs to either tie up the loose ends or at least give the feel of tying them up.

The changes you've made to the dream ending are improving it, but it needs to be tighter. I think there are two things that you could do:

1. Remove the references to vitamin pills. The reference to hunger is enough to explain the bad dreams, and ties in with the events of the dream nicely. I'm not a fan of the barley and farting lines. I can see how you're trying to link the barley in the rice with the pinda in the shradh sequence, so I think it's OK to reference rice with barley - particulary if you can mirror a phrase from the shradh sequence - but maybe don't overload it.

2. Instead of using comments about the shradh when he's waking up, try using the unresolved element of the ghost story, i.e. the contracts. The last thing that happens in the dream before he wakes up is Zant asking him about the contracts. Do you think it would be better to have him waking up muttering something about contracts, contracts, I'll get to the contracts?

His mother could ask him 'what contracts?' and he could mention the shradh, and you can do your reveal that it's just a dream.

This would give us a feeling of closure to the contracts sub-plot. You could resolve it further if there was a task awaiting him in the real world that involved paperwork.

Are you able to write (no need to share it unless you want to) a short summary of the son's circumstances when he went to bed hungry the previous night? What was preying on his mind? Is he anxious about something? Is there paperwork or a job that needs doing that he's been putting off? Does his father love him or not? Where does his father normally sleep? Why did he go to bed hungry?

My gut feeling is that you need to know the real things in the son's life that trigger this anxiety dream if you want to use the dream ending. Once you know those you'll be able to write an ending that satisfies us.

I don't think seeing the chopper knife on the bed makes sense. That suggests that it wasn't all a dream, but we know from the mother's comments that it was.

Graham

[Katsunami]

Man, I'm suddenly so out of time. I still haven't finished the comments to Vera's Itch and mrmarlowe's story. Sorry about that; I hope to get them finished this evening, and then I'll reread Graham's story.

Then I'll start the rewrite on my own...

[arjaybe]

Originally Posted by gmw

One minor thing that tripped me up on this second read:

Spoiler:

Annie backed across the kitchen floor - It wasn't clear we had made it into the kitchen, unless all the bedroom doors open onto the kitchen.

As a reader, I'm not a big fan of flash fiction. As a writer I can appreciate it, but can't seem to do it myself (or not so far). The reader in me would still like to see more meat on the story - in which case my earlier comments are mostly still applicable.

Spoiler:

I only said kitchen floor to help those readers who hadn't assumed that the mother would have naturally come in that way. Around here it's common for the informal entrance to let into the kitchen. I found that I had to have the reader know that it was the kitchen so the counter wouldn't be a surprise. And her little sister's bedroom could easily be down a hallway. We only hear that she 'wandered out.'

I didn't know it was called 'flash fiction' now. I learned of this style as a short-short story. I understand your desire for more meat on it. There are a lot of things that could survive more words. There's enough there that the story could be thousands of words longer. But as I've said, I want this story to be like a quick slash of a knife.

Thanks for your attention.

Jim

[arjaybe]

@Katsunami

I added a spoiler tag to my message #90. You could do the same to your message #94. Better late than never?

Jim

[Katsunami]

Fixed

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Graham

Hi gmw. Here's a pile of line edit comments. As always, take whichever make sense to you.
[...]
Graham

I took most of them. Thanks very much, that was really helpful. I've posted v1.2 incorporating the changes.

I started a thread here some time ago about the use of the word "lounge" (in this part of Australia the word is used as a synonym for sofa or couch), and totally missed that I had also done it in this story - so I've duly changed to "sofa" where necessary. That misuse may also explain why arjaybe thought someone had gone to the kitchen at one point.

The fact that I sometimes splice sentences comes from my deliberately trying to reduce my use of semi-colons. In the past, various beta readers have commented that they found them distracting, and I've seem similar comments here on MR. I had also found that I was sometimes using them unnecessarily anyway. Of course you can't just replace a semi-colon with a comma, but some still slip through. Sometimes it is possible to get away with it - sometimes a trailing or leading clause happily reads as just a clause even if it could also be construed as a complete sentence. And sometimes, as you and arjaybe pointed out, it jars.