New Chapter on Digital Reading (Sony)

[Nate the great]

Thank you, Harry, for proving that LCD is indeed a competitor of Eink.

[HarryT]

It provides an alternative, certainly; I've never claimed otherwise .

[nekokami]

Another point is that the eBw 1150 uses monochrome LCD, which can be read with no backlight (e.g. outdoors) and can use much less power than color LCD. There are few monochrome LCD devices on the market these days, so most people assume LCD means color, but I think the distinction is highly relevant when discussing ebook readers.

[astra]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Thank you, Harry, for proving that LCD is indeed a competitor of Eink.

Not for me.

I am not reading books from backlit devices.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by nekokami

Another point is that the eBw 1150 uses monochrome LCD, which can be read with no backlight (e.g. outdoors) and can use much less power than color LCD. There are few monochrome LCD devices on the market these days, so most people assume LCD means color, but I think the distinction is highly relevant when discussing ebook readers.

That's an excellent point to make. I remember well the original "PalmPilot" devices with mono screens which would run for literally months on a couple of AAA batteries.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's an excellent point to make. I remember well the original "PalmPilot" devices with mono screens which would run for literally months on a couple of AAA batteries.

Well, weeks anyway. I still have a Palm Pilot IIIxe, and it goes for 2-3 weeks but then needs the batteries replaced, whether I've used it or not. I think the older model did run longer on a single set, though.

[wallcraft]

Originally Posted by nekokami

There are few monochrome LCD devices on the market these days, so most people assume LCD means color, but I think the distinction is highly relevant when discussing ebook readers.

Mary Lou Jepsen, who designed to One Laptop Per Child screen, explicitly mentions (monochrome?) e-book readers as targets for Pixel Qi's LCD screens, see Progress. So perhaps we will see new LCD based ebook readers next year.

[EatingPie]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

My original statement was that LCD screens can compete with Eink screens. All that anyone has shown in this thread is that an LCD screen would not suit _them_. No one other than Harry has presented a credible argument that LCDs are not a serious alternative to Eink.

BTW, what about the Ebw-1150? We have many many 1150 owners here. If LCD isn't competitive, then how do you explain them?

Don't LCD screens require refresh every 1/60th of a second (or a variation on that theme)? Or is that simply the rate the backlight (if it has one) flashes at? I'd never heard of a non-backlit LCD before this thread, so I'm not sure which it is.

That said...

E-Ink gives you a static screen that is not refreshing. It stays drawn until you turn the page like a book. Therefore it creates less fatigue on the eyes than (backlit) LCDs.

Originally Posted by David Munch

I stand corrected. After actually reviewing what I belived to be my source, I turns out I was wrong. ~6% was the latest number I could find, and that was indeed based on browser count.

On the Mac support... There are truly a HUGE number of PCs, and the Mac hovers around a 5% market share whenever the stats come out.

However, that includes business usage. The Mac is largely used in the home and by students (no, I don't have stats for that! ). This means that while it has a lower market share overall, more of the people using Macs are the type of users who would buy something like the Reader -- the home market.

IMHO, Sony tends to be self-supporting. They make Vaios, not Macs, so they are far more likely to support the Windows audience... hence the lack of Mac support.

-Pie

[Valloric]

Originally Posted by EatingPie

Don't LCD screens require refresh every 1/60th of a second (or a variation on that theme)? Or is that simply the rate the backlight (if it has one) flashes at? I'd never heard of a non-backlit LCD before this thread, so I'm not sure which it is.

Nothing on an LCD flickers. The crystals that represent pixels (the front matrix) stay stable during a charge. They don't go on/off, they only change color (or power state) when it's specifically requested.

The backlight doesn't flicker either. It's basically a big lamp behind the matrix that stays on all the time the display is powered, even if the pixels in front are displaying black. This is the reason black color still has some brightness on an LCD screen, since the front matrix can't block all the light coming through.

The refresh rate on any monitor is the frequency with which a completely new image is sent from a graphics buffer to the screen. The "refresh rate" on an LCD screen is rather meaningless, so you'll see most LCD's with only a 60 Hz refresh. When an LCD display is sent the instruction to change a specific pixel to a certain color, and that pixel is already displaying that color, it doesn't change it, it leaves it alone. Hell, it's doing it's job already. So no flicker.

On an LCD, the important characteristic is response time. Roughly, it is the time it takes an LCD pixel to change color. Low response time on old or crappy LCD's is the cause of ghosting, that is, the blurred image you see when an object moves fast on such a display. You can see an example here.

The reason our eyes hurt watching any LCD display is because you're basically staring at a light bulb. That's got to hurt, no way around it. You're eyes are not built to take that kind of high luminance for prolonged periods of time. Maybe we'll evolve .

But the point is, a very well built LCD (like the one used in XO laptops from OLPC) that uses very little power and has proper contrast without a backlight, is a very viable display for an e-book reading device. And no, it wouldn't hurt your eyes. It would be as pleasant as an e-ink screen if built with proper contrast. This is very doable for monochromes.

But backlit LCD's? For reading? Sorry Nate, those are an abomination. Even if you need to read in the dark, an e-ink screen with a front light beats it hands down.

[EatingPie]

Originally Posted by Valloric

Nothing on an LCD flickers. The crystals that represent pixels (the front matrix) stay stable during a charge. They don't go on/off, they only change color (or power state) when it's specifically requested.

Thanks Valloric!

Obviously I didn't know how things worked here. I appreciate the explanation, filled the gaps in my understanding.

I'm still curious about the light though. My understanding (from a class I got a C- in, and that's only because I copied my A+ lab partner) all light bulbs flash at the 60hz rate electricity in the US uses. I thought backlights work the same way. Though I grew up in a CRT world, so flashing displays is just something I was always seeing (we STILL have CRTs at work).

Going off topic is what the Internet is all about! But Ill go back on-topic....

I have a hard time believing Sony is just announcing a firmware update or a few new publishers with this big event.

- A new Reader. This I find the most likely, though the Target Stores announcement feels like a big torpedo headed toward this one. However, Sony rolled out non-US/Japan models slowly, and I *believe* the 500 was offered in Canada when the 505 hit the US.
- Faster refresh.
- Higher Contrast e-Ink.
- Wifi/G3/EDGE with browser to buy books direct.
- Slightly cooler design (I still prefer the 500 design over the 505)
- New default format.
- FAIL if they just add connectivity and a browser, dammit!

- Major international support news. Something like one bookstore for everyone. Buy a book and we'll digitize it... etc.

- Amazon opens Kindle format to the Sony Reader (they are a BOOK seller after all). I want to see this more than any feature period, but I believe hell is scheduled to freeze over on the same date as the Sony event.
This is my number one most desired possibility as it basically legitimized ebooks across the board and standardizes on one format.

- Adding a LOT of new ebooks that beats the heck out of Amazon on number of offerings by some significant margin. SIGNIFICANT being like double or something.

- Harry Potter on the Sony Store!!!!!! (Hell, cold, brrrrrr...)

-Pie

[BobVA]

Originally Posted by EatingPie

Thanks Valloric!

I'm still curious about the light though. My understanding (from a class I got a C- in, and that's only because I copied my A+ lab partner) all light bulbs flash at the 60hz rate electricity in the US uses. I thought backlights work the same way. Though I grew up in a CRT world, so flashing displays is just something I was always seeing (we STILL have CRTs at work).

It's sort of like that. In the case of the most common LCD backlight, a compact florescent lamp, it generally isn't fed from the 60 Hz line, but from a dedicated inverter that steps up a low voltage (like 12 volts DC) to a much higher square wave AC voltage that can light the florescent backlight tube. The frequency used is usually WAY above 60Hz since using a higher frequency allows use of a physically smaller transformer. Typical frequencies are in the 20 to 50 KHz range (i.e. 20,000 to 50,000 Hz). The ratio of "on" to "off" in the square wave can be varied to dim the light.

I'm not sure how LED backlit screens work, but if they are dimmable a high frequency square wave is certainly the most efficient way to power them, too.

That all said, I don't believe there's any noticeable perceptual difference between a continuous backlight and one running at a 50 KHz "flicker" rate. The persistence of the phosphor in the bulb will keep it lit through a large portion of the power cycle, so any visible "ripple" is a small portion of the total light. This is unlike a CRT, where the phosphor persistence must be carefully balanced against the need for response to a quick changing image. So, all this would allow me to restate what Valloric said as "For all practical purposes, the backlight doesn't flicker"

If you want a good example of a low power, non-flickering LCD display, take a look at a digital watch. That display is optimized for high contrast and minimal power consumption. Higher resolution displays can have a more visible refresh cycle.

I think eInk buys you few advantages, though: Higher contrast for a given resolution, wider viewing angles and no unpleasant interaction with polarized sunglasses. Another is zero power consumption when static. The Sony Reader doesn't really take full advantage of this (heck, it doesn't even take full advantage of being turned OFF!) but if you compare the size of the battery in the Rocketbook and the one in the Sony the difference is pretty impressive. Not all of the power difference is in the display, but I'm sure it's a significant part of that.

Cheers,
Bob

[astra]

Originally Posted by Valloric

The reason our eyes hurt watching any LCD display is because you're basically staring at a light bulb. That's got to hurt, no way around it. You're eyes are not built to take that kind of high luminance for prolonged periods of time. Maybe we'll evolve .

The question is why?
I believe any conventional light bulbs flicker with the speed electrical current is coursing through it (like 50 times per second?). We do not noticing the flickering but it flickers and that's what tires our eyes.

[jedavis1]

Off topic: Those that said that they can read a page on the 505/500 that the page transition is bothersome... I wish I had that problem! While I don't consider myself a slow reader, there is noway that I read a page (with small type on the 505) in less than 30 seconds... The .5 or 1 second it takes to "turn" the page isn't any different than it would take to physically turn a page in the book...

[Lord KiRon]

Originally Posted by astra

Not for me.

I am not reading books from backlit devices.

+1

I have no idea why and really don't care but my eyes get tired with LCD and are perfectly OK with eInk.

[igorsk]

Originally Posted by astra

The question is why?
I believe any conventional light bulbs flicker with the speed electrical current is coursing through it (like 50 times per second?). We do not noticing the flickering but it flickers and that's what tires our eyes.

Try staring at the lightbulb itself rather than just the things illuminated by it