Going Rogue

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Yes, that is part of the Fair Tax proposal and bill... repealing the 16th amendment.

BOb

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Really? These were war crimes, committed by non Americans.

The constitution does not apply to them.

Doesn't matter, ethics and morals apply. Human rights apply. The Geneva convention applies.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Can you tell me when and what happened to these people?

Doesn't matter. It's the principle, the law of the land as stated by the Constitution was broken directly by order of Bush. He's a criminal.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Laz116

Oh I think we are actually close to an understanding here. (hold your guns everyone).

The difference is that it's not really about us succumbing to their religion imo (trust me, I live in a part of denmark where half is muslim).

It has all to do with social ability and respect for one another. Yes, I am 33 so I have been to a disco and gotten a beating from what we call a 2. generation newcomer. But because one is frustrated. Because one is violent (or even a terrorist) doesn't mean that we should incarcerate anyone the least suspicious. Most of all it's a social matter imo.

When you haven't got any future you are easily recruitable for the extremists.

So the point is that when we raise their standards of living, the threat diminishes for us. We cannot (imo) suppress them. Their need is to great. And USA is to much of an obvious sacapegoat for them.

Good post. It extremely important to separate the concerns - religion, economics, government, society.... Unfortunately in the U.S.A. these all tend to get wrapped up in political parties and platforms as well as being confused in the minds of the people....IMHO.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Just google american ciztizen and patriot act... you find many cases.

Here is a page with some examples.

http://duncanentertainment.com/timeline.php

And I am sure there are more that we never knew about.

Bottom line is. if you believe in this country and swear to protect and uphold the constitution (which every president does) we can't just make excuse and exceptions in our dealings of criminals.

Also, if I am correct the US are signatories of the 1949 Geneva conventions in which we, as a country, agree to treat was prisoners and civilians of enemy states "Protected persons are entitled, in all circumstances, to respect for their persons, their honour, their family rights, their religious convictions and practices, and their manners and customs. They shall at all times be humanely treated, and shall be protected especially against all acts of violence or threats thereof and against insults and public curiosity."

Aren't we a great country that is true to it's word and it's values in ALL cases? Some of our greatest leaders said it best:

Benjamin Franklin wrote: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

"How soon we forget history... Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. And, like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington

"I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." James Madison

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." Abe Lincoln

Wow! PilotBob that deserves a round of applause!

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Harmon

......

On the other hand, I happen to be a US lawyer, and I've done a little reading about the legal uses of what you think of as torture. I don't pretend to be an expert, but I know enough to tell you that the legal basis for the government's treatment of the prisoners seems correct. I would expect the government to win any case against the military for the use of "torture," if it came to court here in the US. I don't know about what might happen in some other country, but frankly, I don't much care.

Again, I don't give a rat's a$$ about whether the law you are referring to says it's legal or not, the ethics and morals of it say differently as does the Geneva Convention documents which we as a nation agreed to, as does our constitution which is not only the ultimate law of the land, but a set of principles to which we should adhere to and apply in all cases regardless of foreign or domestic. We as the United States of America must set a higher standard, regardless of our laws which do not apply outside our boundaries in any case. Your statement that "you don't much care (about any other country)" shows how little respect you have for humanity at large which by the way also applies to yourself.

[Good Old Neon]

Originally Posted by Harmon

I gotta stop. This is getting too easy.

I'm off this thread. Got some real reading to do...

Perhaps you should, as every time you put fingers to keyboard, you give birth to something obnoxiously ignorant, ill informed, and/or just plain wrong. I don’t know what’s worse, engaging in torture, or trying to justify it or otherwise sanction its use. But then I guess every morally corrupt administration has its apologists, and now you can count yourself amongst them – congratulations.

But you are correct about one thing, it is too easy, but not in the way that you think – what’s easy, is allowing you to make a complete ass of yourself.

[Slite]

Keep it civil please, agree to disagree, but do it in a nice way.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Slite

Keep it civil please, agree to disagree, but do it in a nice way.

Speaking of Doughnuts!! It's doughnut day at work today! Yeah!!!!

A truly civilized breakfast. And yes let's try and stay civil. Civil discourse .... and DOUGHNUTS!

[pshrynk]

Well, in spite of warnings from moderators and requests from other members, this thread has started to devolve into name calling. I feel that everything has been said that can be and that it is best at this time to close it so that it cannot continue to become personal.

This was and is a very dificult topic and I thank each and every participant in it. I am heartened that we have in MobileRead a community that can go 450 posts on such a topic and have minimal personal attacks going on.

Thread closed.

pshrynk (moderator)