Argument in favor of DRM

[harriska2]

I suspect we are going to see phone home style ebooks (like itunes mac app store).

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by harriska2

I suspect we are going to see phone home style ebooks (like itunes mac app store).

Not on my ebook reading devices! I just won't buy any books that require that kind of stuff, just like I won't buy any ebooks with DRM that I can't strip. (I haven't bought an ebook with DRM I can't remove for over 10 years now!)

[John F]

Originally Posted by webroot

These big names are bound to be attacked and they had no option but to abandon DRM. But we here are not any employees of those big companies but maybe a startup ebook webstore or indie publishers otherwise why would anybody discuss drm at first place those company CEO would have decided already.

To crack a less known drm you will have to hire a good programmer instead you can directly buy.

...

I think our two views will never meet. My view: If I want your content, I'll pay for it. Your view, if you want my content, you'll steal it.

I like the eink readers I have now, if you want to start a webstore that doesn't work with them, or an indie publisher that doesn't publish for my reader, I'll most likely forgo your content. And I want to be resonably sure I'll be able to read the content on hardware of my chosing in the future.

If I have to hire a programmer to strip the DRM to read what I paid for, I'll forgo the pleasure of your content.

[alansplace]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Not on my ebook reading devices! I just won't buy any books that require that kind of stuff, just like I won't buy any ebooks with DRM that I can't strip...

[eschwartz]

Why on earth would anyone buy a book that cannot be read on the device you already have?

By all means, All Hail to the $100 ebook -- $15 for the ebook file and $85 for the reader.

There is a reason generic DRM systems exist; they are popular enough that you are likely to already own a matching device. Only when you can read more than one or two book on an ereader is it worth buying.

That is without even getting into long-term issues like closing bookstores robbing you of your DRMed purchases.

Or how I know your book exists when it is only sold in some local ebookstore.

[webroot]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

There is one enormous drawback to developing your own independent encryption-based DRM scheme.

No existing ebook reading devices will be able to read the ebooks you sell.

In addition, breaking a DRM scheme that's implemented on a general computer is easier than you might think. I beleive an Italian textbook publisher (?Scuola books?) did develop their own scheme, but of course it could only work with their own software. If I remember correctly, it was cracked in short order.

B&N seem to have moved in this direction themselves. Whether they'll make it profitable is a matter for debate (since books bought through them can now only be read on their own nook devices). It will be interesting to see how long it takes for their new scheme is cracked (if anyone bothers).

How easy a DRM breaks would depend on architecture, a general order of drm strength will is;

Mobile based < native software for pc < dedicated reader device.

The answer to DRM inconvenience can be evolution of mobile based apps unfortunately they are least secure today. Even if some less known vendor has strong drm but his competitor maybe be eager to spend time for breaking the drm thereby breaking its business.

When i started this thread i had in mind not to limit ebooks to only Fiction, Childrens book and Self help but it should be all inclusive and not just count these three common genre and those big retailers selling these genre I know lot of schools and univs are adopting drms.

I dont know whether its good to say "drm is a total waste" because then law would be also a total waste because some people break the law. and there is always cases of crime.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by webroot

How easy a DRM breaks would depend on architecture, a general order of drm strength will is;

Mobile based < native software for pc < dedicated reader device.

The answer to DRM inconvenience can be evolution of mobile based apps unfortunately they are least secure today. Even if some less known vendor has strong drm but his competitor maybe be eager to spend time for breaking the drm thereby breaking its business.

Funny, it is the dedicated devices and PC software (in that order) which have been exploited. I suspect you have it backward...

And no, the danger is not competitors undermining their apps, I do not know which dream world you live in. It is Joe Reader, and Alf(red) Booklover.

I dont know whether its good to say "drm is a total waste" because then law would be also a total waste because some people break the law. and there is always cases of crime.

Law would be a total waste if it accomplished nothing, yes.
DRM is a total waste because it accomplishes nothing.

Notice the difference?

[webroot]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Funny, it is the dedicated devices and PC software (in that order) which have been exploited. I suspect you have it backward...

And no, the danger is not competitors undermining their apps, I do not know which dream world you live in. It is Joe Reader, and Alf(red) Booklover.



Law would be a total waste if it accomplished nothing, yes.
DRM is a total waste because it accomplishes nothing.

Notice the difference?

Generally a mobile apps are easy to reverse engineer take an example of android apk files a newbie programmer can do that. I guess why pc based were attacked more because it was comfortable to work on a pc and run various tools than on a mobile but thats one side of it. I wonder how is a hardware reader easy to break because there vendor has more control on what can be installed and what can be plugged to it. After all this amazon kindle is all most the same.

Lets us hypothesis a world where drm is non existent, then everything can be obtained for free is there a possibility for a new culture that wants everything for free and never likes to pays. I mean when nobody is paying why should the rest should pay? if you know what is culture!

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by webroot

Generally a mobile apps are easy to reverse engineer take an example of android apk files a newbie programmer can do that. I guess why pc based were attacked more because it was comfortable to work on a pc and run various tools than on a mobile but thats one side of it. I wonder how is a hardware reader easy to break because there vendor has more control on what can be installed and what can be plugged to it. After all this amazon kindle is all most the same.

By reverse engineer do you mean script kiddies using common scripts to break the DRM?

Kind of the way even a beginner ebook-reader can break Amazon/ADE DRM?

There is no significant difference between the two except as you say, running the tools on a mobile device. And remember, calibre doesn't run on Android.

Hardware readers are just as locked down as PCs and tablets and smartphones i.e. not, once someone has jammed a serial cable into the innards and gained a command-line prompt.

Lets us hypothesis a world where drm is non existent, then everything can be obtained for free is there a possibility for a new culture that wants everything for free and never likes to pays. I mean when nobody is paying why should the rest should pay? if you know what is culture!

You are under the highly disturbing misapprehension that no DRM (encryption, that is) is the same as available for free. That makes it very difficult to hold a meaningful conversation.

[CWatkinsNash]

Originally Posted by webroot

Lets us hypothesis a world where drm is non existent, then everything can be obtained for free is there a possibility for a new culture that wants everything for free and never likes to pays. I mean when nobody is paying why should the rest should pay? if you know what is culture!

Surely you are aware that, for anyone who doesn't think they should pay, any book with any sort of demand is on the darknet day of release, if not sooner. DRM doesn't stop that. It never did - because it existed before DRM, before ebooks.

Anything that can be read by the end user can be pirated. Period. NOTHING can stop that aspect of things.

That's not what DRM does. And any publisher with a brain knows that. That's not what they are trying to stop with DRM.

Do you know what an obscure mobile-only, always-online DRM would do? It would increase downloads from the darknet, because it would cross the line for what a lot of people are willing to put up with and some would just go download it instead. Others will simply go buy a different book that doesn't have that.

I know for me, if reading ebooks required in internet connection beyond the initial download, I wouldn't be buying ebooks anymore. Period.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by webroot

Lets us hypothesis a world where drm is non existent, then everything can be obtained for free is there a possibility for a new culture that wants everything for free and never likes to pays. I mean when nobody is paying why should the rest should pay? if you know what is culture!

There's no need to hypothesise. Online music is a world where DRM is (now) non existent and everything can be obtained for free (although there's no relationship between the use of DRM and the availability of things for free). Strangely enough, the Music Business is still in business, selling online music, and still making lots of money.

Make it convenient and reasonably priced, and people will buy rather than pirate.

[webroot]

After reading these replies I accept that DRM isnt a solution that is going to stay long but most of answers here are on too "theoretical" like "if X is possible then ...then Y is done 100% already and anybody". Can some tell that if DRM is made extinct right away how long Amazon can hold their top position? I mean what makes amazon a better choice than other are not it will be all about marketing isnt it? We are always talking about this peculiar monopoly of amazon in ebook retail business that is rare to see in other industries. Why do people fear amazon ?

Some people here are claiming they can break any DRM, i feel tempted to create a simple DRM client - server demo and give them for a try. I really wonder how you can do!!

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

There's no need to hypothesise. Online music is a world where DRM is (now) non existent and everything can be obtained for free (although there's no relationship between the use of DRM and the availability of things for free). Strangely enough, the Music Business is still in business, selling online music, and still making lots of money.

Make it convenient and reasonably priced, and people will buy rather than pirate.

Couldn't have said it better.

[webroot]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

There's no need to hypothesise. Online music is a world where DRM is (now) non existent and everything can be obtained for free (although there's no relationship between the use of DRM and the availability of things for free). Strangely enough, the Music Business is still in business, selling online music, and still making lots of money.

Make it convenient and reasonably priced, and people will buy rather than pirate.

You cannot always compare two different industries, if drm is total waste then it would have already phased out, industry is smarter and faster than us. Another thing to ask is average price of a commodity being sold if it is below 10$ there is no point in worrying or adding overheads of DRM.

[latepaul]

Since the analogue loophole is easier to exploit and produces results with less quality loss (potentially none) with ebooks - you'd expect DRM to be more attractive to the music industry. If it worked that is.