Font-families and justified alignment

[cybmole]

Originally Posted by ElMiko

As I said, the problem isn't restricted to Sigil. Calibre also has this rendering problem. Which is precisely why i'm trying to determine the cause: so I can know whether I need to worry about this rendering issue translating to ereaders, and how to avoid it. In any case, I'm not arguing with anyone here—it's not a debate; I'm simply asking a question.

.

ok - but my point was : no e-reader supports that font anyway, as far as I know - so it's an academic question. you could maybe get onto an e-reader (legally) via custom firmware + embedded fonts in e-book ( if it is not a copyright protected font) but how many end users are going to want to do that ?

it's already been explained that calibre & sigil use a common quick time library module, so they show same bug, but no e-reader hardware has that library module on board

[ElMiko]

Thanks for looking into this, guys.

Sigil doesn't seem to respond one way or another to enclosing the font-family in quotes, but I understand that's the convention, and will be sure to update my css template to reflect that. I'm running 32-bit Vista with Sigil v0.5.3, and calibre v0.8.61. Also, I've attached a screen shot that shows some of the cut off text; this sample isn't particularly egregious although you can see some words getting cut off. If you guys can't duplicate the bug, then fuhgedabowdit—I appreciate your having given it the old college try.

@cybmole - I don't want to get into a huge row with you, but ultimately, determining whether my concern is "academic" is central to why I asked the question. You'll recall that I asked why it was behaving this way, and (based on the "why") whether anyone knew of any other fonts that would render this way. the ducks explained why Calibre & Sigil would render the text consistently against eachother (they share the same display engine). The question then becomes whether the rule in QT that results in the skewing is a rule that I might expect to find in other programs (using either the same or different display engines). While I'm perfectly happy to concede that most e-ink readers render text in the device's own font, computers and tablets have a more generous font catalog. So if the rule in QT that is causing the text to render all funky is a rule NOT unique to that display engine, I would like to know. Now, I understand that on rare occasions I ask questions to which no one here knows the answer. I can totally live with that. It looks like my problem can't even be duplicated, so I'll just hope for the best. But it's frustrating to have my question patronizingly dismissed as "counting angels on the head of a pin". Also, I understand that tone can translate poorly in text, and even more so in forum conditions, so if I've misinterpreted your posts, I apologize.

[Doitsu]

Since fonts seem to cause the problem try the following first:

- Stop or disable the Windows Presentation Foundation Font Cache service, if it's running
- Delete the font cache file C:\Windows\System32\FNTCACHE.DAT and restart your system

BTW, did you check the Qt version? It's 4.7.4 on my machine:



If you have the same Qt version and the font cache changes had no effect, your may want to opt for the "nuclear option."
I.e. back up your Calibre library and any books or other files that you might have saved in the Sigi and Calibre program folders.
Then completely uninstall both Calibre and Sigil, delete any leftover files in the program folders, clean the registry and reinstall one at a time and test whether your problem occurs in one of the apps or both.

[Hitch]

Errr...Actually, iBooks has a "standard" Palatino font, FWIW. Not to get twixt and tween, here, but...it does.

I've had some very funky results when trying to view "results" in Calibre, and I've had to tell more than one client not to use it (had one who wanted to know when we were "going to put the italics back in," which almost gave me fits). I don't usually have similar problems, though, in Sigil, which, if I understand Ducky correctly, is then odd.

@ElMiko: I'll ask around the shop, and see if anyone else has run into this, but I don't believe we have seen this behavior. I've seen very odd behavior in iBooks with line-HEIGHT issues, but not this overrun issue, sorry.

Hitch

[cybmole]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Errr...Actually, iBooks has a "standard" Palatino font, FWIW. Not to get twixt and tween, here, but...it does.


Hitch

well you live 'n learn. I'd never heard of it but then what i know about fonts would fit on a postage stamp - with a suitable font, of course

wikipedia tells me that it is not a free font though so I assume that means it cannot be legally embedded into a for-sale epub ?

is there a way to emulate ibook rendering on a pc or do you have to get all appled-up ?

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by cybmole

wikipedia tells me that it is not a free font though so I assume that means it cannot be legally embedded into a for-sale epub ?

That depends on the embedding license, which may be not particularly clear.

[frostschutz]

There's something seriously wrong with your font display; the capital letters all look like they have a space char following them, e.g. "M ain D rive" instead of "Main Drive". This doesn't happen for me, so it's either using a bad font, or you have a bad copy of that font, or a buggy font renderer on your system somehow.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by cybmole

well you live 'n learn. I'd never heard of it but then what i know about fonts would fit on a postage stamp - with a suitable font, of course

wikipedia tells me that it is not a free font though so I assume that means it cannot be legally embedded into a for-sale epub ?

is there a way to emulate ibook rendering on a pc or do you have to get all appled-up ?

Many of my (recent Baen ) purchased books that , like your sample, called a font that was not embedded (and no fallback specified)

I googled the font. the font is available for License... at $35 per face (normal,bold,italic,bold-italic ) Ouch! $150

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by cybmole

well you live 'n learn. I'd never heard of it but then what i know about fonts would fit on a postage stamp - with a suitable font, of course

wikipedia tells me that it is not a free font though so I assume that means it cannot be legally embedded into a for-sale epub ?

is there a way to emulate ibook rendering on a pc or do you have to get all appled-up ?

Hey, Cyb!

Always good to gab with you, no matter the excuse. Yes, I send my clients out to license the fonts, no exceptions. We deal in IP here all day, so we don't allow any type of copyright infringement--I just can't. And distributing the actual font file in an ePUB is clearly "redistribution," unlike using it in a PDF for, say, Createspace. So we tell them to either go forth and procure the license, OR, to go to dafont, fontsquirrel, etc., to obtain (or select) a similar font, which we use under that license. We embed the entire font in the ePUB, or, at least, whatever faces we need.

Does that help?

Hitch

[Toxaris]

Originally Posted by theducks

Many of my (recent Baen ) purchased books that , like your sample, called a font that was not embedded (and no fallback specified)

I googled the font. the font is available for License... at $35 per face (normal,bold,italic,bold-italic ) Ouch! $150

Have you contacted Baen? This is really not acceptable for a purchased book. It should be in working order...

[cybmole]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Hey, Cyb!

Always good to gab with you, no matter the excuse. Yes, I send my clients out to license the fonts, no exceptions. We deal in IP here all day, so we don't allow any type of copyright infringement--I just can't. And distributing the actual font file in an ePUB is clearly "redistribution," unlike using it in a PDF for, say, Createspace. So we tell them to either go forth and procure the license, OR, to go to dafont, fontsquirrel, etc., to obtain (or select) a similar font, which we use under that license. We embed the entire font in the ePUB, or, at least, whatever faces we need.

Does that help?

Hitch

well it's interesting. I guess font licencing never anticipated such things as sony e-readers & PRS+ firmware.
so the traditional model is: publisher buys font licence then prints & sells as many books as they can.
that model presumably applies also to e-book publishers - publisher pays to embed font into ebook....
But now we have the option for readers to add fonts directly to their devices ( via firmware) & then do geeky stuff which cause them to appear in books.

I have never wanted to , but I understand that a truly enterprising geek could rip that font out of a paid-for book in which a copy is embedded, & re-use it.

How do you manage / licence / control that mess ?. If I bought the book, which contains the font, can I legally copy that font to a different folder on my device & apply it to other books - I suspect not, but I would not fancy having to write the controlling legalese for that situation.

also, I see that I have that linotype font thingie in Windows / MS office,( so I "paid" for it when I bought windows, or Office ) - so can I legally print & sell books written in Word, using it? When I convert my word doc to an ebook in order to sell that, do I cross a legal line somewhere ?

the Baen example, IMHO, neatly ducks this - in effect it says this book would look nicer in font X, so we've specified it as 1st choice in the CSS, but hey - getting the font licenced onto your device, dear reader, is your problem, not ours

PS I am not planning any blatant acts of piracy here, I am just curious about how it is all regulated

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by cybmole

well it's interesting. I guess font licencing never anticipated such things as sony e-readers & PRS+ firmware.
so the traditional model is: publisher buys font licence then prints & sells as many books as they can.
that model presumably applies also to e-book publishers - publisher pays to embed font into ebook....
But now we have the option for readers to add fonts directly to their devices ( via firmware) & then do geeky stuff which cause them to appear in books.

I have never wanted to , but I understand that a truly enterprising geek could rip that font out of a paid-for book in which a copy is embedded, & re-use it.

How do you manage / licence / control that mess ?. If I bought the book, which contains the font, can I legally copy that font to a different folder on my device & apply it to other books - I suspect not, but I would not fancy having to write the controlling legalese for that situation.

also, I see that I have that linotype font thingie in Windows / MS office,( so I "paid" for it when I bought windows, or Office ) - so can I legally print & sell books written in Word, using it? When I convert my word doc to an ebook in order to sell that, do I cross a legal line somewhere ?

the Baen example, IMHO, neatly ducks this - in effect it says this book would look nicer in font X, so we've specified it as 1st choice in the CSS, but hey - getting the font licenced onto your device, dear reader, is your problem, not ours

PS I am not planning any blatant acts of piracy here, I am just curious about how it is all regulated

Hi:

Well, that's a blog post and a half, all by itself, but I'll try to answer it with some amount of competence here.

Traditional model is, yes, publisher buys font and uses it on however many books. He's not "redistributing" the font, as the font can't be used by whomever buys the print book.

BUT, when you make an ePUB, of course, you are redistributing the font, because it's being embedded, in its entirety, in the ePUB. And yes, "enterprising" (ahem) geeks or even semi-geeks could rip open an ePUB and abscond with the font, just as they could with the content, OR simply by going to any of a dozen font rip-off sites. I don't/can't do anything to regulate that, any more than I personally or corporately run around and chase down content pirates, although we do embed "stuff" in the ePUBs that help identify copies that came from our shop, for the use of our customers. We're digital-age equivalents of printers, not publishers--so we don't do the chasing of pirates.

With regard to licensing, our contract text states that we rely upon the publisher (the author or imprint) to license the font, as it is of course they who are doing the distribution, not us. When I receive a font file, unless I see overt and obvious signs that it's been bootlegged, I presume my client's innocence. (Some, bless their hearts, send me their receipts/license agreements.)

You cannot copy/legally use the font in that book for your own use; it's licensed only to be applied in THAT book, by THAT publisher, for you to enjoy reading--not re-using.

If you have Linotype Palantino in Windows, (or a Mac font suitcase), that font has been licensed/purchased by Microsoft or Apple, for their redistribution to YOU, only, and for your personal use only. You may use it to type a book, and even "print" it in PDF to be printed at, say, Createsapce. IF, however, you try to use it for an ebook, two things will happen--you won't (I'm assuming no hacks here) be able to actually "embed" that font, so it won't work in an ePUB, because they're encrypted, essentially. You can use 'em, but you can't actually suck the font files out of your Win7 box or Mac and put them in your ePUB as font files. (Trust me--we've had so many clients who tried, it's almost a running joke around here--"Ye Gods, it's another transmission from the Font Suitcase!," which inevitably results in files with right-sounding file names--but nada in the files themselves.) So, yes--if you try to make an eBook with, say, Palatino from your Word options, that's crossing a line.

I honestly have no idea how Baen works, or...are you saying that they tell you to go out, download the font files from "FontsrUs" and upload them on your reader? OMG, , I cannot imagine the average e-reading buyer from, say, Amazon or B&N doing this. I can see the MReaders doing it, but the average e-reading customer? NFW. (No Freaking Way.)

Here's a grey area to which I do not know the answer: if you buy an ePUB with Palatino, and you rip it apart, and put Palatino on your computer, Only for your own enjoyment, is THAT crossing the line? Or, one step further, if you use it to type a manuscript, is THAT crossing the line? I truly don't know. I suspect most font creators would not pursue that, unless/until you then turned around and tried to re-distribute it AGAIN for another eBook. At that point, they would assuredly get cranky, I'm sure. However, I don't know how the licensing works to that level of minutiae (about using it on your home computer, say, as a font for Word.)

I don't know if I helped?

Hitch

[Doitsu]

IMHO, ebook font embedding is a grey area, because traditional licensing agreements usually don't explicitly cover this subject.
For example, Adobe distinguishes between the following license types: No Embedding, Preview & Print, Editable and Installable. These licensing types are also encoded in most ttf and otf fonts.

If you install the MS Font properties extension, you can check the embedding status by clicking the Embedding tab. For example, here are the embedding properties for one of Microsoft's most beloved fonts:



However, finding a font with an Installable embedding license on your computer doesn't necessarily mean that you can embed it in your ebook, because the font might have been exclusively licensed by the OS manufacturer or the developer of the program that installed it. It's usually safe to assume that all commercially available fonts need to be licensed.

BTW, there lots of great free fonts available from Font Squirrel and SIL, many of which are also used in commercial ebooks.

Originally Posted by cybmole

How do you manage / licence / control that mess ?. If I bought the book, which contains the font, can I legally copy that font to a different folder on my device & apply it to other books - I suspect not, but I would not fancy having to write the controlling legalese for that situation.

Embedded fonts are usually obfuscated and since you'd need to remove the DRM to deobfuscate the font, I guess both are technically equally illegal.

[cybmole]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Hi:


I don't know if I helped?

Hitch

oh yes - very well explained, thanks.

when you say that some of the licensed fonts on my PC are encrypted, how come they still work in sigil / calibre book view i.e. what is doing the decrypting.

I could understand MS work having a secret decryption key, but not open source software, surely ?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by cybmole

oh yes - very well explained, thanks.

when you say that some of the licensed fonts on my PC are encrypted, how come they still work in sigil / calibre book view i.e. what is doing the decrypting.

I could understand MS work having a secret decryption key, but not open source software, surely ?

Cyb:

They work because you have the font on your computer. If you sent that file to a friend who did not have the font installed on his/her computer, s/he would not be able to see the embedded fonts.

It's like a PDF that's called, but not embedded, a font. It won't display the font utilized (e.g., the ubiquitous MS Calibri) on someone else's computer who uses, say, OO on a linux box--it'll display some default font instead, that IS on the recipient's computer.

Hitch