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Old 09-02-2013, 01:06 AM   #76
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That rational doesn't change the fact that it's not theft. It's quasi-theft.
It's simply copyright infringement. "Theft" sounds more serious and is understood by the average person, which is why the content industry likes to use it in the piracy context. "Piracy" itself is also a poor choice, but at least it's somewhat romantic.
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Old 09-02-2013, 01:13 AM   #77
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It's simply copyright infringement. "Theft" sounds more serious and is understood by the average person, which is why the content industry likes to use it in the piracy context. "Piracy" itself is also a poor choice, but at least it's somewhat romantic.
Coming over the rail with a cutlass in the teeth.-)
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Old 09-02-2013, 01:18 AM   #78
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It's simply copyright infringement. "Theft" sounds more serious and is understood by the average person, which is why the content industry likes to use it in the piracy context. "Piracy" itself is also a poor choice, but at least it's somewhat romantic.
The term "piracy" to refer to unauthorised copying and distribution of literary works has been used for more than 400 years. It isn't a modern coinage, and there's certainly nothing in the least "romantic" in its meaning. When people used the term in the 16th century, piracy was a very real and decidedly unromantic reality.

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Old 09-02-2013, 01:38 AM   #79
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The term "piracy" to refer to unauthorised copying and distribution of literary works has been used for more than 400 years. It isn't a modern coinage, and there's certainly nothing in the least "romantic" in its meaning. When people used the term in the 16th century, piracy was a very real and decidedly unromantic reality.
So already 400 years ago, content providers deliberately used an incorrect term to make an action seem more severe and serious.

But anyway, it seems that courts clarified the "theft" issue decades ago:

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Courts have distinguished between copyright infringement and theft holding. For instance, in the United States Supreme Court case Dowling v. United States (1985), bootleg phonorecords did not constitute stolen property. Instead, "interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: '[...] an infringer of the copyright.'" The court said that in the case of copyright infringement, the province guaranteed to the copyright holder by copyright law—certain exclusive rights—is invaded, but no control, physical or otherwise, is taken over the copyright, nor is the copyright holder wholly deprived of using the copyrighted work or exercising the exclusive rights held. (link)
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Old 09-02-2013, 03:24 AM   #80
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Everytime i read here something like BREIN or other think there is a other way fighting against piracy other than better prices and dropping DRM and Watermarks, i begin to and download a copyright book for free....

You see it with music. Nobody cares about piracy with music anymore. Why? Because the fight against piracy was successful? No! Because of dropping the use of DRM, better prices and legal cheap music streaming...

Last edited by samy2; 09-02-2013 at 03:33 AM.
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Old 09-02-2013, 03:37 AM   #81
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Everytime i read here something like BREIN or other think there is a other way fighting against piracy other than better prices and dropping DRM and Watermarks, i begin to and download a copyright book for free....
You think that taking someone's livelyhood away from them is funny ?
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:03 AM   #82
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Do you really think that copyright guarantees the livelihood of anyone else then companies and performance rights organisation etc.? And does i take the livelihood of anyone if i borrow a book from a library, friend etc. or just buy a used one?
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:13 AM   #83
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Do you really think that copyright guarantees the livelihood of anyone else then companies and performance rights organisation etc.? And does i take the livelihood of anyone if i borrow a book from a library, friend etc. or just buy a used one?
Not everyone who makes a living from content creation is a big company or a performance rights organisation. Many of us are just ordinary people trying to make a living by writing and selling books or software. Do you ever stop to think about who it is you're hurting when you illegally download such things?

Copyright is not involved when you borrow a book from a friend because you're not creating an additional copy of it. In most western countries libraries pay an author every time a book is borrowed from a library - it's called the "public lending right" (PLR).

You may think it's funny, but from the point of view of the content creator it sure as hell isn't.
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:41 AM   #84
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I loan out my extra Kindle. How kosher is that?
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:45 AM   #85
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Copyright is not involved when you borrow a book from a friend because you're not creating an additional copy of it. In most western countries libraries pay an author every time a book is borrowed from a library - it's called the "public lending right" (PLR).
All of my life a bought used paperback books. So the authors and others does not get a penny. Create a additional copy or not is not the point. If a borrow a book from a friend i'm " taking someone's livelyhood away" as much as i use a piracy copy.

And piracy is as funny as fighting against piracy which is always a fight against privacy.

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I loan out my extra Kindle. How kosher is that?
You keeping some from buying his own version, thats "taking someone's livelyhood away" as much as lending a paperback book or downloading a piracy copy.

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You may think it's funny, but from the point of view of the content creator it sure as hell isn't.
Sure as heaven and hell there is no evidence that piracy is taking someone's liviliehood away. O'reilly made a study, thats found out that as more piracy as more ebooks als legally sold.

Last edited by samy2; 09-02-2013 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 09-02-2013, 05:25 AM   #86
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Do you ever stop to think about who it is you're hurting when you illegally download such things?
There is a good chance that he is hurting no one.

Hypothetical losses are irrelevant, and the only question that matters is whether he would have paid for the book that he downloaded if he could not have downloaded it. If not, then no one lost anything.

It might irritate an author, but the author didn't lose any money that he or she would otherwise have gotten. The author does gain something from an illegal downloader: exposure, word of mouth, recommendations, perhaps purchases of future books. From that perspective, illegal downloading may actually benefit the content creator.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Some "pirates" would have bought books that they downloaded if there had been no other ways, most probably would read something else (classics, free stuff, other books that are available for download). Happy "pirates" will probably recommend books that they downloaded and read, if they liked them, which does help authors.

DRM is a bit of a different topic, but I think it does more harm than it helps the content creators. It only helps the content distributors. DRM causes people to break the law (by removing the DRM) and once they are done chewing on the fact that they just did something illegal (which for a lot of people is a moral concern), the question "If I have to do this just so I can use my paid books on all my devices, why don't I just download them straight away?" isn't really far off.

My answer to that question is that I want authors I like to continue to write, because I enjoy their works, so I buy their books. It's the most direct way I can achieve that. If I find a self-publishing author whose books I like, and they don't DRM their content, I'm very likely to buy everything they put out. If they use DRM, I feel that I'm not trusted and will spend less.

Similarly, if e-books from traditional publishers were cheaper, I'd be more willing to try out newer authors (or writers who are new to me) instead of sticking to those that are already favorites. Plus, if e-books were cheaper, or could be re-sold, I would overall buy more e-books and would contribute to the livelihood of more authors.

The inability to sell e-books "used" is a topic for a separate thread, but it is another relevant point that often gets glossed over: What about the rights of the buyer? What about the buyer's livelihood? All of us work for our money and survival. Why should the reader pay as much for e-books as for paper books and then, in addition, have their rights restricted? That's one of the may other sides of the same issue.
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:17 AM   #87
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There is a good chance that he is hurting no one.

Hypothetical losses are irrelevant, and the only question that matters is whether he would have paid for the book that he downloaded if he could not have downloaded it. If not, then no one lost anything.
Well of course any pirate is going to come out with the lame excuse "but I wouldn't have bought it". I'm afraid I find it rather difficult to accept the word of someone who's just demonstrated their fundamental dishonesty by illegally downloading in the first place. Someone like that is unlikely to have any qualms about lying.
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:39 AM   #88
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And piracy is as funny as fighting against piracy which is always a fight against privacy.
There's no more "right to privacy" for someone who pirates books or software than there is for someone who parks their car illegally, or rides on a bus without buying a ticket. In both cases there is a legal right to learn your identity to issue you a parking ticket, or a fine for not paying your fare. Piracy is no different.
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:45 AM   #89
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Well of course any pirate is going to come out with the lame excuse "but I wouldn't have bought it". I'm afraid I find it rather difficult to accept the word of someone who's just demonstrated their fundamental dishonesty by illegally downloading in the first place. Someone like that is unlikely to have any qualms about lying.
What if it's true? It doesn't seem far-fetched to me. Though, actually, I saw some studies that indicate that people who pirate media also buy more media than the average person, which also makes sense to me. My guess is that the vast majority of "pirates" buy the type of media they also "pirate". Those who genuinely never buy anything are probably an extreme minority. I don' feel they matter from an economical point of view.

The issue is really two-fold: there's the moral aspect (which is individual and has many different sides, some of which I touched on in the previous post), and the legal aspect (which is more objective). Legally, by downloading he violates the same law that one violates by removing DRM from e-books. I don't feel that this makes the vast majority of us here at MR "fundamentally dishonest". Legally, though, there is no difference.

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Old 09-02-2013, 07:06 AM   #90
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What if it's true? It doesn't seem far-fetched to me. Though, actually, I saw some studies that indicate that people who pirate media also buy more media than the average person, which also makes sense to me. My guess is that the vast majority of "pirates" buy the type of media they also "pirate". Those who genuinely never buy anything are probably an extreme minority. I don' feel they matter from an economical point of view.
I'm sure it is true for some people, just as I'm sure that that most people who park illegally and get a parking ticket sometimes (perhaps even often) do indeed park legally, but if you're given a parking ticket, is it a valid excuse to say "but I sometimes park my car legally"?

The fact that a person buys content legally does not make it acceptable for that same person to also pirate content, any more than parking your car legally makes it acceptable to also park it illegally. You get punished for the laws you break; you can't "balance" your law-breaking against the laws you obey.
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