[GUI Plugin] Reading List

[paulfiera]

Originally Posted by DavidTC

_I_ use the plugin to maintain a list of books that I want on a ereader. I'm not entirely sure what else the plugin can do, but that's what I do with it.

This plugin is fantastic.

I use it to add books to my reading list and to my wife's reading list - two separate lists - and to mark the books as read, again in both my wife's and my personal reading list. This means that the same book can be tagged as read by me but still be in my wife's reading queue.

[kiwidude]

Originally Posted by DavidTC

I don't really understand the question? Presumably, the 'Reading List' plugin has some use over tags, or it wouldn't even need to exist. I'm not sure why I would be asked why the lists are more useful than just using tags.

The reason I asked is because you never explicitly said in your post why you would want such a feature. If your *only* purpose was to get a list of books that have a tag at a point in time, you don't need a plugin - as I said in my original response you can do this already using the search syntax or tag browser. Even your example of newly added books being in a list due to a tag - if all you want to do is see them to work with them then you already have the ability to do this today without the Reading List plugin.

However your last example was a valid one showing what such a feature would achieve when you mention wanting such a list to be synced to a device. If it sounds strange to you, Reading List did not start out with any sync capability at all, it was just about the ability to maintain orderable lists of books. Sync capability came about from deprecating another plugin called Book Sync and rolling its functionality into this one.

In terms of implementing it, it would need some thought. Currently the plugin is all about manually adding items to lists, with menu items to support this with actions such as Add, Edit, Remove. What relevance do they have for a list that is being automatically populated? Do we just make such actions not apply to a tag driven list, so all you can do is "View" it? Probably the simplest approach.

Then there is the question of custom columns - I support doing stuff with custom columns or tags, so you should be able to do custom column driven lists as well.

Then there are other issues around device syncing. If the list is populated on demand (which it would have to be), then that means when you plugin/sync to your device it needs to do a query behind the scenes to figure out what books if any are on the list. So there are potentially some performance implications.

There are also the complications of things like search restrictions. What if you apply a restriction, and then view a list? You are only going to see books within that search restriction. What if that restriction is applied when you plugin your device? Only books matching that restriction will get synced. Now that all may be "ok" but then again it might confuse the heck out of some users.

So I don't think it is as trivial as just adding a checkbox

[DavidTC]

If it sounds strange to you, Reading List did not start out with any sync capability at all, it was just about the ability to maintain orderable lists of books.

That sounds strange to me. Barring the word 'orderable', I don't see what advantage that has over tags or making a custom column. (In fact, I don't quite understand how the books are orderable, they do not seem to such to me.)

I understand this didn't start out as a sync plugin, but it honestly baffles as to what else it is supposed to be.

In terms of implementing it, it would need some thought. Currently the plugin is all about manually adding items to lists, with menu items to support this with actions such as Add, Edit, Remove. What relevance do they have for a list that is being automatically populated? Do we just make such actions not apply to a tag driven list, so all you can do is "View" it? Probably the simplest approach.

Doesn't Reading List already add and remove tags when you take them on and off the list? I don't see why that part need change at all.

Then there is the question of custom columns - I support doing stuff with custom columns or tags, so you should be able to do custom column driven lists as well.

I don't see why why you're _not_ just using a custom column as the actual defining feature of the list.

These seems be one of those very strange ways in which plugins seem unwilling to interact with each other. I don't understand this concept of storing 'toggles' anywhere but as a tag, or a custom column if people don't want to make it a 'tag' per se.

If that happens, people can make stuff that happens in one plugin apply to another. But instead, the stuff get 'marked:', which is apparently some secret thing no one else is allowed to know about. I can't add it to the tag browser, I can't add it as a column, it's just somehow 'marked:' where I can search for it if I happen to know what it is (Or have a button that provides the search), but that's it.

Then there are other issues around device syncing. If the list is populated on demand (which it would have to be), then that means when you plugin/sync to your device it needs to do a query behind the scenes to figure out what books if any are on the list. So there are potentially some performance implications.

I don't know anything about the plugin API, so I don't know, but it's possible that you can put a hook on metadata changes, and just whenever a book changes tags, you quickly check it.

[kiwidude]

Originally Posted by DavidTC

That sounds strange to me. Barring the word 'orderable', I don't see what advantage that has over tags or making a custom column. (In fact, I don't quite understand how the books are orderable, they do not seem to such to me.)

It was originally about allowing users to easily maintain multiple lists of books in an order that they want to read them - that is where the "order" comes in. You can specify the order when you edit a list - there are up/down buttons on that screen allowing you to change it, and the results are reflected when you view the list.

As for the rest - you got it right when you said you don't understand the calibre API or the reasons why many plugins don't use custom columns. And having an attitude about it doesn't exactly engender me to try to explain it.

[DavidTC]

It was originally about allowing users to easily maintain multiple lists of books in an order that they want to read them - that is where the "order" comes in. You can specify the order when you edit a list - there are up/down buttons on that screen allowing you to change it, and the results are reflected when you view the list.

And that really seemed important enough for a plugin? People were maintaining large lists of books they wanted to read, in order? Well, okay, I guess.

As for the rest - you got it right when you said you don't understand the calibre API or the reasons why many plugins don't use custom columns. And having an attitude about it doesn't exactly engender me to try to explain it.

The Reading List plugin does use custom columns. It can set and remove tags from them just fine. It just doesn't read them.

Now, it's entirely possible there's some sort of problem reading them that I don't know about. But it seems to be able to individually read information from books just fine, and I can pull up a reading list of over 250 books and it can instantly get the information about them. (I checked, it reflects metadata change after being added to the list.)

And I have other plugins that, when I click on a book, they alter what menu items they present based on the metadata (For example, Goodreads changes based on whether or not the book has the goodread metadata added.) so clearly there's not any sort of delay there, either.

But if you don't want to tell me the super-secret reason that plugins can't use the user-facing-and-editable 'toggles set on books' that are tags and custom columns, and instead have to use their own internal, no-user-or-other-plugin-can-alter-it toggles, I guess I can't force you.

[DoctorOhh]

Originally Posted by DavidTC

And that really seemed important enough for a plugin? People were maintaining large lists of books they wanted to read, in order? Well, okay, I guess.

Still hanging onto the attitude?

Originally Posted by DavidTC

And I have other plugins that, when I click on a book, they alter what menu items they present based on the metadata (For example, Goodreads changes based on whether or not the book has the goodread metadata added.) so clearly there's not any sort of delay there, either.

Kiwidude wrote 44% of the user plugins that can currently be installed via the calibre install plugins interface. Including the Goodreads plugin so he is aware of what can and can't easily be accomplished.

Originally Posted by DavidTC

But if you don't want to tell me the super-secret reason

Why continue posting if the reason is to merely antagonize the person you're trying to convince to add features to the plugin?

[DavidTC]

Still hanging onto the attitude?

No, attitude would be arguing that such a plugin is pointless. I'm not entirely sure _I_ see the point, but if that actually is something people were interested in doing, I'm not going to argue.

Why continue posting if the reason is to merely antagonize the person you're trying to convince to add features to the plugin?

So, let me see if I understand. Me admitting I don't know what else the Reading List plugin is for except to sync, and someone mentioning some purpose that seems somewhat pointless to me, but me saying 'Oh, okay, I guess' instead of trying to argue the point is 'attitude'. I guess I should have lied and said 'Why, I can see the purpose of that! What a great idea!' instead of just saying 'Okay'.

But _refusing_ to tell me why plugins do not use the stuff accessible via the user-interface to set toggles on books, and why they instead use some sort of marking that nothing outside that plugin can access...why, that's entirely reasonable.

Kiwidude wrote 44% of the user plugins that can currently be installed via the calibre install plugins interface. Including the Goodreads plugin so he is aware of what can and can't easily be accomplished.

So, in other words, this rather odd thing I see across multiple plugins is because the same guy makes them?

It might, indeed, make sense to code that way, but the fact one guy likes to keep track of groups of books via 'marking' them instead of tagging them does not actually prove that. In fact, that actually it makes it _more_ likely it's just a coding style.

Of course, I'm sure I'll never know, because apparently I don't get an explanation of why a plugin locating all specifically tagged books when it needs to iterate over them is so hard. It's entirely possible there is a perfectly good explanation, like 'Plugins aren't allowed to access anything but currently selected books'.

But I guess instead we'll talk about whether or not I've show proper deference or not when I showed up to ask about a baffling design decision, instead of the person who knows why that decision was made explaining it, or, even better, saying 'Hmm, there's no reason why we're doing it that way anymore, that started that when custom columns didn't exist and never changed.' or whatever.

[kiwidude]

@DavidTC - had you actually come on here and asked "could you please tell me why this was done this way" I would have explained it. You may call it "deference", the 99.9% of the other users of this forum would just call it simple politeness out of respect for the time it would take me to type and explain it. Instead you have posted like a complete and utter prick with increasing amounts of animosity and aggression. Hard though it appears for you to conceive, these plugins and support posts are done in my spare time purely for enjoyment, and not in any way to serve you.

For anyone wanting a lesson on how to turn a feature request I was considering into something that is not of the slightest bit of interest to me and just pissing me off, DavidTC has provided it. Out of politeness to other users of this forum and thread I won't express my exact words I would say to you in person, but I would hope you can guess them by now.

[electronicfur]

Hi,

I'm new to the plugin, and cant figure out how I can set it up to sync a list to two devices, or if it's not designed to do this.

I have a single "to read" list and would like it synced to both my Kindle & N900 phone. Is that possible? I have both devices in the "Devices" grid with the Menu checkbox checked. I'm a bit unsure of what that checkbox does to be honest, as it doesnt seem to affect anything. And I can only enter one device in the "Device to sync this list to" dropdown.

Cheers,
EF

[itimpi]

The plugin will maintain separate lists for each device that is to be synced to, and as far as I know this is built-in behaviour.

However it does have an option to add a book to "All Lists" which would achieve what you want if you have no other lists being maintained. I have two devices and add many (but not all) books to both devices in this manner.

[chaley]

@DavidTC: this is piling on, but so be it.

Often people come to this forum asking us to do things for them. That something takes our skill, knowledge, and time; all commodities with value and things that the requester does not have or chooses not to use. Nothing tangible is offered in return. Most offer a thank you. Some seem to feel that they are entitled to my time for who-knows-what reason, and can't even say "thanks". A few offer insults. I have been called moron, wanker, pinched face, and worse.

This leaves the question: why should I do anything here? For me, there are three reasons:
- The problem is interesting in some way, usually intellectual or technical
- The request is for something that I will personally use
- I feel like it because the person seems to be nice.
All three are entirely subjective, and absolutely at my discretion.

Lets put this another way. Assume that I have been known to give $100 bills away from time to time. Someone appears at my door and requests one. I ask the person "for what", and the person answers "to satisfy my wants, and your cat is ugly." I try to rise above it and I give the the person a $100 bill. The person then says "this bill isn't good enough -- it is folded and has your stinky finger juice on it". At that point I close and lock my door.

The source for the plugin is available. Change it however you wish.

[electronicfur]

Originally Posted by itimpi

The plugin will maintain separate lists for each device that is to be synced to, and as far as I know this is built-in behaviour.

However it does have an option to add a book to "All Lists" which would achieve what you want if you have no other lists being maintained. I have two devices and add many (but not all) books to both devices in this manner.

Thanks itimpi. I didnt realise that option existed as it didn't show on the menus because I only had one list created. That's a good workaround as I dont have any other lists.

[itimpi]

Originally Posted by electronicfur

Thanks itimpi. I didnt realise that option existed as it didn't show on the menus because I only had one list created. That's a good workaround as I dont have any other lists.

Interesting observation. As I added two devices almost immediately then I never noticed this item not being present.

That raises an interesting point about UI design and feature 'discoverability'. Maybe it would be good practise for that option to always be visible as a hint to the facility existing? I must admit I do not have strong view either way but it might be interesting to see what others think?

[swkotor]

Hey guys,

Sorry if this has been answered somewhere else in the thread but is it possible to sync your goodreads "to read" order to a reading list?

[kiwidude]

Hi swkotor,

You specifically say goodreads "to read" order. However Goodreads has no concept of "order" - you can sort your books by various criteria, but you do not "order" the books like you can with the Reading List plugin.

Putting that aside, the bigger question is whether you can sync a goodreads shelf into a reading list. To which the answer is no, it is not currently possible. One option for doing this was mooted on the previous page in this thread, but any enthusiasm for that idea was somewhat dampened for fairly obvious reasons if you keep reading above.

Right now the Goodreads Sync and Reading List plugins work completely independent of each other. I guess another way of approaching this would be to support a new sync action for a shelf in goodreads, so in addition to existing actions like "add tag value" you could have a new action of "add to reading list" allowing you to specify the name. I guess it depends on whether others would find it useful.