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Old 06-25-2010, 08:49 AM   #61
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The sad thing is that, whilst I might object to your means of expressing it, it was actually sound advice, and had it been followed by those who did not want there to be a discussion about the word "liseuse" on MR, the ensuing rancour and vitriol that followed would have been avoided, us whackos who do like the word would have talked it to death, the thread would have become inactive and I wouldn't be walking around with this animosity towards you (to the extent that is possible to feel animosity to someone who one knows nothing about other than that they are American, female, keeps cats and has a bad knee).

And I still don't know what pLlay and Llounge mean.
the Llounge is where the Llamas in their pajamas Llay about and get up to no good in an entirely whacky way.

now if you can maintain the Llounge in your head in that sense, then you should be able to have a much more Llighthearted approach to anything that goes on there
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Old 06-25-2010, 09:39 AM   #62
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Getting back on topic, we as moderators try to be impartial and try to do as good a job as we can. Many of our decisions are made "in committee" and reflect quite a lot of discussion behind the scenes. Our main shortfall is in being fallible. For that, we apologize.
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Old 06-25-2010, 09:49 AM   #63
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Getting back on topic, we as moderators try to be impartial and try to do as good a job as we can. Many of our decisions are made "in committee" and reflect quite a lot of discussion behind the scenes. Our main shortfall is in being fallible. For that, we apologize.
speaking of which, how do moderators become modded? how do they become un-modded? many decisions appear to be not at all well thought out. what are our options if we feel a particular mod has it out for us? how do we know that things we have brought to the modly attention are being looked at/acted upon?
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:06 AM   #64
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Getting back on topic, we as moderators try to be impartial and try to do as good a job as we can. Many of our decisions are made "in committee" and reflect quite a lot of discussion behind the scenes. Our main shortfall is in being fallible. For that, we apologize.
I'm sure that is true in many cases, but I sincerely doubt it was the case in the referenced thread and situation because of the frantic post rate. I believe it was moderators, the two I've named -- zelda and nate -- acting entirely on their own and not entirely without bias.
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:09 AM   #65
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Kenny you may have not realized it, but some of your posts were very provocative in that thread, and I came close to reporting them myself. Zelda only pointed to the guidelines, and characterised a hypothetical behaviour as trolling, in my opinion correctly. Nate did not even take part in the discussion, but saw it the same way. Please let it rest.
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:32 AM   #66
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You are welcome to your opinion (as well as your sig) but this thread is to discuss the situation which is exactly what I am doing.

The issue is that Zelda pointed out the guidelines in a threatening manner in the midst of a discussion about something she and I disagree about. She had no business "pulling out the moderator gun" in that situation. That is what this thread is about. And it is not the first time it has happened in discussions between zelda and I.

My behavior WAS NOT TROLLING. You may claim it is, zelda may claim it is, but it was not and is not and was perfectly in line with the topic under discussion.
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:34 AM   #67
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Kenny you may have not realized it, but some of your posts were very provocative in that thread, and I came close to reporting them myself. Zelda only pointed to the guidelines, and characterised a hypothetical behaviour as trolling, in my opinion correctly. Nate did not even take part in the discussion, but saw it the same way. Please let it rest.
just shows to go ya' how different impressions can be. to me it appeared that Nate was participating simply as a layperson. Zelda appeared to be switching her hats repeatedly at will. in fact I asked her directly about a post that I felt was inappropriate and she ignored it. I felt that there were a couple of other people that were MUCH more provocative than Kenny even came close to being
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:43 AM   #68
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@kennyc: Again, no one called your behaviour trolling, not even Zelda. She called a hypothetical behaviour trolling. You called my behaviour trolling in this very thread right here, and if it was not a personal attack I don't know what was. On the liseuse thread, one of your posts that I still remember bitterly, was "Did we run Moejoe off yet? Can I unsubscribe?". Even if it was meant humorously, which I doubt, it felt very much like a personal attack and I resented it, even if I was not the person you were trying to run off. It actually read as if your sole reason for being on the thread was to run someone off. I find this extremely objectionable. So, please, when you shout about personal attacks against you, take the time to think before you make any personal attacks yourself.

@kindlekitten: Yes, our perceptions are coloured by our sympathies. People we agree with feel less provocative to us, even if sometimes they may cross a line or two. I'm trying to be as objective as possible, but arguably, no one can be absolutely objective, whichever the side they are on.
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:43 AM   #69
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One of the things that I like about MobileRead is that we discuss things like this openly. I have been involved in fora where this thread would have been deleted and in one the OP banned. That just doesn't happen here. It is uncomfortable to read this thread, especially for Zelda and Nate. But I assure you that there is not a discussion going on to close or delete the thread.

Speaking again as a member and not a moderator, it brings me pain to see others engaged in the flame and blame game that erupts at times. I really wish that the type of words I listed above would not be used other than in circumstances where it is entirely clear that it is jockeying and not serious. It is terribly uncomfortable for me to see people I really like sniping at one another.
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:45 AM   #70
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Old 06-25-2010, 06:29 PM   #71
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ok, here's an idea. when threads are closed for violations, why not give credit where it is due?

*some* people had some good dialogue going. *some* of us may not know that we are bad kids without some reinforcement. this is a part of the whole; maybe it's not all that transparent after all feeling going on
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Old 06-26-2010, 10:20 AM   #72
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One of the things that I like about MobileRead is that we discuss things like this openly. I have been involved in fora where this thread would have been deleted and in one the OP banned. That just doesn't happen here.
Uh, look at the status of the OP. (Okay, might have been for an unrelated matter.)
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Old 06-26-2010, 10:23 AM   #73
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Uh, look at the status of the OP. (Okay, might have been for an unrelated matter.)
He asked to be banned. More than once. It was not, in fact, this request that got him there. But the premise still stands. Discussing this sort of thing does not get you banned. It does, in fact, get answered to the best of our ability.
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Old 06-26-2010, 10:56 AM   #74
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First, I apologise for not responding to this thread sooner. I have had a busy week and the past few days in particular have been very full.

This thread seems in itself a good demonstration of some of the reasons we ask our members to make a special effort towards being respectful of others, even if they disagree with their points of view ; what one person may see as a light-hearted joke may not be understood as such by someone else, and what might seem like a simple discussion to one can seem provocative to others. This is the main point i was trying to make in the "liseuse" thread. In light of that, kenny, I would like to ask you specifically to please go back and take another look at what I wrote. I certainly had no intention of threatening you nor anyone else and I think if you re-read carefully exactly what I wrote you'll find that there is no threat in my words.

We try very hard to maintain an ambiance of tolerance and friendliness here. The international nature of this forum, which is a big reason that it is such an interesting place, also means that we *all* may need to make an extra effort to understand and respect other people's points of view, even when ours may be different, particularly as many people are participating in a language which is not their first, and different cultural backgrounds may mean that some jokes are not obvious to others.

Florence, omk, TGS and others have made very good points in this thread about tolerance and taking a step back to avoid replying in anger. I hope that we can *all* take these ideas to heart in order to preserve the exceptional nature of this community.

As for the specific question of moderators participating in discussions, I joined the liseuse thread with the hope of avoiding a conflagration similar to previous ones over the same topic. I attempted to keep my few moderation interventions light-handed and light-hearted, the way *any* member might post a friendly reminder if they see a conversation becoming unnecessarily heated, because there was an attempt at some interesting and respectful discussion which i would have liked to see continue. I am sorry if a few of you found that to be unclear. I do not personally like to resort to overly repressive interventions at the first sign of trouble because I think that our members are adults and I prefer to give everyone the opportunity to resolve any disagreements as adults, which many are able to do with the occasional friendly reminder. However as demonstrated by the stronger messages posted later and finally the closing of that thread we are sometimes forced to take stronger actions, and we do this after discussion amongst the team.

I appreciate the very interesting discussions that can arise here thanks to the participation of people from different backgrounds and cultures, and I'd like to thank everyone for that. I look forward to more of them, and I hope everyone feels welcome to participate.
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Old 06-26-2010, 10:59 AM   #75
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Might I add that of all the moderators, Zelda has the "lightest hand" when it comes to intervention. She is quite frequently in a small minority when it comes to approaching members who are straying. And because of that influence, I feel we have a much better forum for it.
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