08-15-2011, 11:42 PM | #46 |
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08-16-2011, 03:55 AM | #47 | |
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Employers and employees are not negotiating from equal positions. |
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08-16-2011, 07:10 AM | #48 |
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08-16-2011, 07:55 AM | #49 |
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08-16-2011, 08:11 AM | #50 |
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If a term of an EULA, or a disclaimer in a movie, or book, was such that you knew it was unenforceable in your jurisdiction, would you refuse to use the software, view the movie, read the book?
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08-16-2011, 08:29 AM | #51 | |
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08-16-2011, 08:35 AM | #52 |
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08-16-2011, 08:43 AM | #53 |
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Regarding the (off-topic) debate, both sides have valid points (like any good debate, I guess).
On the one hand, I, too, would argue that people should be aware enough of their contracts to make an informed decision as to whether or not they can live up to the terms and conditions. And, failing that, have a fairly weak argument of injustice. On the other, as others have said, employers and employees are not equal. The latter, quite often, might not be in a situation where they cannot pick and choose contracts to accept, nor be in a position where they have any power to negotiate terms. Moral of the story - don't get caught! |
08-16-2011, 09:50 AM | #54 | |
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Ooh! I actually know the answer to this one. It depends on which country your aunt resides in -- different countries classify hermaphrodites differently. I saw a documentary once. |
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08-16-2011, 10:06 AM | #55 |
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Just my 2 cents.
I agree with DiapDealer, you should not sign something that you have every plan to break. I have been faced with contracts that I do not agree with. In every single case I have drawn a line through the offending item and initialed it. I also may write a small note stating that I do not agree to this term. It is now up to the other party to accept your terms or not. No, employers and employees are not on the same page. That does not take away your ability to negotiate for yourself. It makes no sense to get yourself in that situation. While it is difficult to say, maybe you do not need to accept that job. If you have to have that particular job so much...then you need to abide by your working contract. You can't have it both ways. Personal integrity is not always the easy way to go but it will always be a better bedfellow than regret. |
08-16-2011, 10:09 AM | #56 | ||
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08-16-2011, 10:09 AM | #57 | |
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So I guess I'd say I take a third option. But then I'm Chaotic Good. My Lawful Neutral husband would probably agree with ya'll. |
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08-16-2011, 10:14 AM | #58 | |
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Also, there's a bit of a goalpost-moving from "I don't violate my word" to "I won't complain if caught". To the best of my knowledge, these teachers didn't complain, either -- *I* am. None of my business -- again, Chaotic Good -- but I do think there's a certain amount of privilege in this thread that isn't helping the issue. I think being fired from a job in this day and age for drinking a beer at a BBQ is a heinous act on the part of the employer and should be actionable in court, because the fired person could lose their house and sink into debt for the rest of their life. (That's not even touching the health care issues.) And the fact of the matter is, no one can live to a perfect GODLY LIFE STANDARD -- that's sort of the POINT of Christianity, if I understand the religion properly. I also think the government has the responsibility to protect its citizens from unfair termination of employment -- if only because a healthy republic isn't built on the backs of the homeless, the hopelessly indebted, and the chronically ill. Saying, therefore, that the person fired should basically have known better and had a certain brand of "I don't violate paper contracts, but I do break DRM on the weekends" morality is not especially sympathetic-towards-the-wronged-person or helpful-to-the-republic-in-question. It's really only helpful towards the employers who benefit from being able to abuse and dominate people. I'll bow out of this now because, as you say, I value our friendship. Last edited by anamardoll; 08-16-2011 at 10:29 AM. |
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08-16-2011, 10:31 AM | #59 |
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I truly think you're missing my overall, uber-point here:
If you sign a contract knowing full well that you're going to breach it at some point... fine and dandy. But you forfeit the right to bitch about it if/when you get caught in that breach. So while my apparent breaching of various TOS's might seem to be contradictory (and may in fact be), that doesn't change the fact that I am completely culpable for that breach. And I wouldn't dream of telling my prosecutors that "you had no right to put that clause in there in the first place!" |
08-16-2011, 10:42 AM | #60 |
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Well, if it just boils down to "don't get caught and don't complain if caught"... I don't know of any teachers who did complain once caught. It was in the news in each case that I saw, but more as a journalist running down the story rather than the teacher ringing up the local news network.
I brought up the point not as a "they should be allowed to complain" but rather "this should not be legal". I really don't care if people complain or not -- up to them. But that's a far cry from I NEVAR BREAK MY WORD LEST I LOSE HONOR AND DISEMBOWEL MYSELF. Which is what some of this thread sounded like. (Not all from you, I might add.) |
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