Sony Reader: What do we want from searching? (poll) - Page 4

dugbug · 12-17-2006, 09:15 AM

Then given the lack of a touch screen and the sluggishness of eink, you may want two forms of search:

One would go into search mode to select a word on screen, then hit "go" (or whatever) and have you presented with a list of locations and a "return/cancel" option.

Second would be to call up a hotlist of pre-recorded search strings perhaps managed by your PC over the connect software. This one could allow you to drill down first with the search string selection, then the book (or all books). Here I am thinking of research phrases and whatnot.

-d

Bob Russell · 12-17-2006, 09:32 AM

I'm sure there will be some that want global search, but I think it's going to be too slow and painful (as dugbug has suggested also). Personally, I'd be happy with a search within a book. For linear novel reading, that's plenty.

If you want to find that passage that "you know you read, but can't remember what book it was in", maybe it's just as well to wait and look for it on the desktop instead.

yvanleterrible · 12-17-2006, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

If I wanted something like that, Yvan, I'd have bought a Tablet PC

. I don't want something "A4" sized or larger; for me the Reader is the perfect size.

This really isn't a "one size fits all" market. There's room in the market for both "paperback book" sized devices like the Reader, and A4 sized devices such as your picture for technical manuals, newspapers, etc. Wouldn't you agree?

I would have loved a tablet! I've tried one for a while. My eyes just can't deal with them! Eink is the only way. The two screens I have before me right now are about three feet in front of me with the refresh rate at the highest setting. After a short while I need to look somewhere else.

Asides from that an eink device will be more ecological in energy savings. And lighter because all memory is flash; no hard drives.

Actually what I'd prefer is this.

HarryT · 12-17-2006, 11:02 AM

We'll get the flexible plastic screens in 2008, supposedly. That opens up a whole new ballgame in terms of device "form factors" - imagine a Reader that "unrolls" like an old-fashioned "scroll", for example!

Booky McGee · 12-17-2006, 12:53 PM

I don't expect an onboard search function in this model. While it would be capable, no one is going to be satisfied with the text entry. Who cares if it's 20 seconds or more to search if it takes 2 minutes to enter the search string? I had a Nokia 3650 for a couple years, and text entry was completely unintuitive due to the layout. I can only imagine it would be the same or worse on the reader.

Go To Page ____ function? Yes please. More than once or twice I've closed the cover on my book while it's on because of some interruption. Clumsily, I'll pick it back up with my thumb pressing the 9 or 0 button through the cover. Ten pages in I realize I'm reading the last chapter.

alex_d's idea of pressing any number key to bring up 'go to page' is great, since it would prevent that kind of hamfisted orangutan move.

Make it a feature that can be toggled on or off from the settings. Even doing it from the book's menu wouldn't be bad. There's certainly an open slot on the menu page, or under utilities.

NatCh · 12-17-2006, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booky McGee

More than once or twice I've closed the cover on my book while it's on because of some interruption. Clumsily, I'll pick it back up with my thumb pressing the 9 or 0 button through the cover. Ten pages in I realize I'm reading the last chapter.

Yeah, that is annoying. I'm guessing that you haven't yet discovered that clicking 'left' on the Jogstick will take you backwards in the display history? That's the way I recover from that. Well that and being (Adrian) Monkish about setting a bookmark when I put the Reader down, even for a few seconds.

Booky McGee · 12-17-2006, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatCh

Yeah, that is annoying. I'm guessing that you haven't yet discovered that clicking 'left' on the Jogstick will take you backwards in the display history? That's the way I recover from that.

Well there you go, they already went back in time and fixed it for me.

I knew it was another 'back' command, but hadn't realized it drew from that history/last 100 pages buffer. That also explains why 'right' does nothing.

NatCh · 12-17-2006, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booky McGee

That also explains why 'right' does nothing.

Heh, 'right' does do something ... but only if you've already done something with 'left.'

I should stop there, as my opinion that the 'right' ought to do a 'next page' if it's at the end of the history has already been well aired hereabouts.

alex_d · 12-17-2006, 10:26 PM

Mcgee's right. Text entry is a challenge given the long refresh. On the face of it, multitap has a problem since getting to the third letter might mean waiting three seconds. If you mess up, that's another four, and that's too painful. Two words really could take a full minute to type.

First of all, the screen has to be put into 1-bit mode (0.5s refresh). Second, it should use the same principle the menu chevron uses if you press joystick up/down. It seems something new can appear on the screen faster than something old can disappear. So, visually, the letter choices should rise up in a vertical column with each tap instead of changing in place. (When a letter is finished, the column will get erased.) It might be possible, even, to start painting the third choice before the second or first is even solid (asynch drawing). That should help solve the refresh problem. Plus... it'll look a bit like the matrix and maybe it might make it easier to learn to multitap.

Also, the multitap scheme should be identical to a phone, including the quirks. So the number 1 doesn't get used and some keys have 4 letters. Obviously it's not the best way to do it, but at this point it's best to not use a dvorak.

yvanleterrible · 12-18-2006, 09:14 AM

Something else could be done. While in writing mode the refresh rate could be bumped up in a fashion similar to the Iliad's. When you're out of it, if you specify, it comes back to it's usual, and if it's not used after 3 mins. it will also comes back to saving mode by itself. The writing and annotation mode should be brought "on" by a dedicated button or combination of. A speed refresh should not have to be accompanied by the flash to black screen, one could go crazy!

nekokami · 12-18-2006, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugbug

Let me ask a dumb question: Are we talking about searching the current book we are reading, or searching all of the material stored on the device (including I imagine MP3 titles)?

I don't think this was a dumb question at all. One reason I haven't bought a Reader is because I want search, and when I think of search, I think of being able to search multiple books-- or more to the point, articles. I did a lot of that this weekend while writing a term paper. Fortunately Acrobat can search multiple PDFs for a string (at least, once I'd run the merely scanned articles through OCR), so I was able to find the references I was looking for without having to plough through all the articles again. That's the functionality I want in an eBook reader, but with a nice E Ink screen that will be easier to read, use less power, and generate less heat.

But I realize that many people just want a Reader to read fiction. I suspect I'll be buying an iLiad (which also doesn't have a built-in multibook search function, but maybe someone will create one, or at least I can get to the shell and use grep).

alex_d · 12-19-2006, 06:48 PM

about searching articles.... I assume then you wouldn't want to search the whole reader, but a folder on the reader.

nekokami · 12-20-2006, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex_d

about searching articles.... I assume then you wouldn't want to search the whole reader, but a folder on the reader.

Yes, that would be best. If the reader supports sub-folders, I'd prefer the search to include those.

jlong7 · 12-21-2006, 05:03 PM

For e-books to become my preferred method of reading I need to be able to search as fast as I can search an index in the back of a book and pages for underlined text. With an e-reader you can't really fan through pages looking for underlined text (not that you can even underline in Sony). And you can't flip back and forth to the index as easily as you can on paper. So search is really necessary for me to be comfortable. In fact, I underline and rely on an index so much, that I could see giving up on an e-reader and just buying a paper copy of the book.

A dictionary would be a nice perk. But I don't have a dictionary in the back of every book. So I wouldn't miss it. And while I think I would use it, I can't say I would use it any more than the dictionary that is usually in my book case rather than next to me while I read.

Jonathan

jæd · 12-21-2006, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlong7

And you can't flip back and forth to the index as easily as you can on paper.

Ever tried hyper-linked e-books with user-defined bookmarks...?

View Poll Results: What do we want from searching?
Jump to Next/Previous occurance of specified string	42	62.69%
A List of all occurrences (nice to have)	10	14.93%
A List of all occurrences (gotta have it)	4	5.97%
A List of all occurrences with page #s (nice to have)	10	14.93%
A List of all occurrences with page #s (gotta have it)	0	0%
A List of all occurrences with surrounding words (nice to have)	9	13.43%
A List of all occurrences with surrounding words (gotta have it)	8	11.94%
I’d like to have a dictionary word lookup function	22	32.84%
I’ve gotta have a dictionary word lookup function	8	11.94%
I want something REALLY complicated and involved from a search, and I want it to happen instantly!	1	1.49%
~ 3 seconds is okay for most searches	8	11.94%
~ 5 seconds is okay for most searches	16	23.88%
~ 10 seconds is okay for most searches	10	14.93%
~ 15 seconds is okay for most searches	1	1.49%
~ 20 seconds is okay for most searches	8	11.94%
I don’t care how long as long as it returns what I want to see	7	10.45%
I don’t have a dog in this hunt, I just want to see the poll results	3	4.48%
(newly added) Repeat last search	24	35.82%
(newly added) Whole word only option	20	29.85%
(newly added) Case sensitive option	14	20.90%
(newly added) I don't want a search function	8	11.94%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

12-21-2006, 05:03 PM	#59
jlong7 Junior Member Posts: 6 Karma: 10 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Washington, DC	What I Can Already Search For e-books to become my preferred method of reading I need to be able to search as fast as I can search an index in the back of a book and pages for underlined text. With an e-reader you can't really fan through pages looking for underlined text (not that you can even underline in Sony). And you can't flip back and forth to the index as easily as you can on paper. So search is really necessary for me to be comfortable. In fact, I underline and rely on an index so much, that I could see giving up on an e-reader and just buying a paper copy of the book. A dictionary would be a nice perk. But I don't have a dictionary in the back of every book. So I wouldn't miss it. And while I think I would use it, I can't say I would use it any more than the dictionary that is usually in my book case rather than next to me while I read. Jonathan Last edited by jlong7; 12-21-2006 at 05:04 PM. Reason: Wanted to add a thoght.

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12-17-2006, 09:15 AM	#46
dugbug Addict Posts: 206 Karma: 1723 Join Date: May 2006 Device: Kindle	Then given the lack of a touch screen and the sluggishness of eink, you may want two forms of search: One would go into search mode to select a word on screen, then hit "go" (or whatever) and have you presented with a list of locations and a "return/cancel" option. Second would be to call up a hotlist of pre-recorded search strings perhaps managed by your PC over the connect software. This one could allow you to drill down first with the search string selection, then the book (or all books). Here I am thinking of research phrases and whatnot. -d

12-17-2006, 09:32 AM	#47
Bob Russell Recovering Gadget Addict Posts: 5,381 Karma: 676161 Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Device: iPad	I'm sure there will be some that want global search, but I think it's going to be too slow and painful (as dugbug has suggested also). Personally, I'd be happy with a search within a book. For linear novel reading, that's plenty. If you want to find that passage that "you know you read, but can't remember what book it was in", maybe it's just as well to wait and look for it on the desktop instead.

12-17-2006, 11:02 AM	#49
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	We'll get the flexible plastic screens in 2008, supposedly. That opens up a whole new ballgame in terms of device "form factors" - imagine a Reader that "unrolls" like an old-fashioned "scroll", for example!

12-17-2006, 12:53 PM	#50
Booky McGee Member Posts: 18 Karma: 15 Join Date: Oct 2006 Device: PRS-505	I don't expect an onboard search function in this model. While it would be capable, no one is going to be satisfied with the text entry. Who cares if it's 20 seconds or more to search if it takes 2 minutes to enter the search string? I had a Nokia 3650 for a couple years, and text entry was completely unintuitive due to the layout. I can only imagine it would be the same or worse on the reader. Go To Page ____ function? Yes please. More than once or twice I've closed the cover on my book while it's on because of some interruption. Clumsily, I'll pick it back up with my thumb pressing the 9 or 0 button through the cover. Ten pages in I realize I'm reading the last chapter. alex_d's idea of pressing any number key to bring up 'go to page' is great, since it would prevent that kind of hamfisted orangutan move. Make it a feature that can be toggled on or off from the settings. Even doing it from the book's menu wouldn't be bad. There's certainly an open slot on the menu page, or under utilities.

12-17-2006, 10:26 PM	#54
alex_d Addict Posts: 303 Karma: 187 Join Date: Dec 2006 Device: Sony Reader	Mcgee's right. Text entry is a challenge given the long refresh. On the face of it, multitap has a problem since getting to the third letter might mean waiting three seconds. If you mess up, that's another four, and that's too painful. Two words really could take a full minute to type. First of all, the screen has to be put into 1-bit mode (0.5s refresh). Second, it should use the same principle the menu chevron uses if you press joystick up/down. It seems something new can appear on the screen faster than something old can disappear. So, visually, the letter choices should rise up in a vertical column with each tap instead of changing in place. (When a letter is finished, the column will get erased.) It might be possible, even, to start painting the third choice before the second or first is even solid (asynch drawing). That should help solve the refresh problem. Plus... it'll look a bit like the matrix and maybe it might make it easier to learn to multitap. Also, the multitap scheme should be identical to a phone, including the quirks. So the number 1 doesn't get used and some keys have 4 letters. Obviously it's not the best way to do it, but at this point it's best to not use a dvorak.

12-18-2006, 09:14 AM	#55
yvanleterrible Reborn Paper User Posts: 8,616 Karma: 15446734 Join Date: May 2006 Location: Que Nada Device: iPhone8, iPad Air	Something else could be done. While in writing mode the refresh rate could be bumped up in a fashion similar to the Iliad's. When you're out of it, if you specify, it comes back to it's usual, and if it's not used after 3 mins. it will also comes back to saving mode by itself. The writing and annotation mode should be brought "on" by a dedicated button or combination of. A speed refresh should not have to be accompanied by the flash to black screen, one could go crazy!

12-19-2006, 06:48 PM	#57
alex_d Addict Posts: 303 Karma: 187 Join Date: Dec 2006 Device: Sony Reader	about searching articles.... I assume then you wouldn't want to search the whole reader, but a folder on the reader.

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