Anti-Muslim Bias to the International Kindle

[MattP]

yes of course, many of these countries have ebook readers. plus, many people writing here suffer from a seriously flawed perception of Muslim countries. They associate them too much with Taliban. It would be the same thing if Muslims take February 2010 issue of National Geographic and conclude from the story that all Americans marry 10 women and have 250 grandchildren.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20.../anderson-text
Many of the countries left out have good infrastructure and liberal economic systems. think of Dubai, Qatar, Bahrain in the Arab world, Turkey, Indonesia, Azerbaijan, Central Asian republics, etc. Can you put them in the same category of countries with Myanmar where kindle can be ordered and ebooks downloaded.
Now looking at the map of kindle availability, I am puzzled to see that there is a strong correlation between no-kindle and Muslim majority. I want to understand this and know if amazon attempted to include those countries in the Muslim world but they did not want it.
I received a response from amazon customer service, which basically stated that they forwarded my response to kindle department.

Originally Posted by HansTWN

I think you are looking at this the wrong way. Actually what you should be considering is how many of these very conservative countries would like their citizens to have access to Kindle ebooks? The governments and major parts of Muslim societies would be deeply offended. I am sure Amazon would be more than happy to take their money, if they could.

[MattP]

Muslim world is not a geographic term. it expands from Morocco to Indonesia. Turkey is in Europe, Egypt in Africa, Pakistan in South Asia, Indonesia in Southeast Asia. in each of these geographical units, other countries are included. so your argument is not true.

[luqmaninbmore]

Originally Posted by HorridRedDog

The problem may be with what could be inside.

Harlequin Romances


Has anyone checked to see if ANY ereaders are allowed in Muslim countries?

Well, given that there are several posters from Saudi, I think the answer would be yes. Muslim countries are extremely diverse socially, economically, politically, and culturally. While you do have socially conservative absolute monarchies such as Saudi, you also have secular democracies such as Turkey and Indonesia. Pakistan and Bangladesh are very similar to India in many respects (political culture, level of economic development, social norms, etc.); it is extremely odd that India and Nepal have the Kindle but former countries do not. I could understand that there is a limitation on the Kindle's ability to display right-to-left script which would explain the absence from the Arab and Israeli markets. But why would Indonesia and Malaysia be left out? Why would Turkey be left out? Pakistan and Bangladesh are both huge markets for English-language books. When I went to Lahore, there was an English medium score on every corner. I just would like to know what Amazon's reasoning is in not entering this market. I don't know of any argument that would apply to Pakistan that wouldn't apply to India as well.

Luqman

[Lemurion]

I still think there are multiple reasons - though there is one thought that does leap to mind.

It might have to do with cover images, in that as I understand it there is a strong bias against if not prohibition of representational art in Islam. I'm not sure of the details, but I've heard enough about it that I'm sure there's at least some truth in the basic idea. Maybe they decided not to extend to Islamic countries because of concern about that prohibition and are involved in researching it on a case-by-case basis.

I don't know for sure, but I think that's one possibility.

[MattP]

cover images are everywhere in bookstores and newsstands. in many of them, cover images of magazines are much more liberal than the ones in the United States.

representational art in Islam while traditionally discouraged still took place several hundred years ago in the form of miniatures.

an example for a miniature from Iran:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sa...tan_Palace.jpg

an example from the Ottoman Empire:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...ith_dishes.jpg

Originally Posted by Lemurion

I still think there are multiple reasons - though there is one thought that does leap to mind.

It might have to do with cover images, in that as I understand it there is a strong bias against if not prohibition of representational art in Islam. I'm not sure of the details, but I've heard enough about it that I'm sure there's at least some truth in the basic idea. Maybe they decided not to extend to Islamic countries because of concern about that prohibition and are involved in researching it on a case-by-case basis.

I don't know for sure, but I think that's one possibility.

[HorridRedDog]

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

....

Pakistan and Bangladesh are both huge markets for English-language books. When I went to Lahore, there was an English medium score(store?) on every corner. I just would like to know what Amazon's reasoning is in not entering this market. I don't know of any argument that would apply to Pakistan that wouldn't apply to India as well.

Luqman

Pakistan and Bangladesh do not strike me as countries where the "average" person has a relatively large amount of spare money. Not saying that they don't, though.

You were in Pakistan. All that I see of it is from the news.

Are the people outside of the (Pakistan and Bangladesh) cities able to spend enough to buy a Kindle?

Even in the rural US areas a farmer can buy a Kindle. (If he doesn't have "10 women and have 250 grandchildren".)

Like me, he will think about what else he could use the money on. But Johnny or Judy Appleseed can do it with just a little savings in a week to a month, or two if needed.

A better way to say it is "what is the cost as a percentage of income for all nations?"

Is it easier for a farmer in Germany to buy a Kindle than a Pakistani?
Is it easier for a farmer in Italy to buy a Kindle than in India?
Is it easier for a farmer in Dubai to buy a Kindle than a Bangladesh?

Relative Per Capita Income Rates will make a difference.

It may have nothing to do with religion.

Economically, the farmer in Bangladesh may have more in common with the farmer in the Appalachian mountains. Just plain dirt poor.

[vaughnmr]

(without trying to presume Amazon's intent) it may that they just can't really SELL the hardware or books in those regions. Either or both. Maybe rampant piracy, or stringent government restrictions, censorship, who knows. What about the legal implications of selling the Kindle in those countries. It hasn't really been that long since the Kindle and Amazon books have been available outside USA, has it? Maybe they just need to ramp up!

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by MattP

yes of course, many of these countries have ebook readers. plus, many people writing here suffer from a seriously flawed perception of Muslim countries. They associate them too much with Taliban. It would be the same thing if Muslims take February 2010 issue of National Geographic and conclude from the story that all Americans marry 10 women and have 250 grandchildren.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20.../anderson-text
Many of the countries left out have good infrastructure and liberal economic systems. think of Dubai, Qatar, Bahrain in the Arab world, Turkey, Indonesia, Azerbaijan, Central Asian republics, etc. Can you put them in the same category of countries with Myanmar where kindle can be ordered and ebooks downloaded.
Now looking at the map of kindle availability, I am puzzled to see that there is a strong correlation between no-kindle and Muslim majority. I want to understand this and know if amazon attempted to include those countries in the Muslim world but they did not want it.
I received a response from amazon customer service, which basically stated that they forwarded my response to kindle department.

No, I am not thinking of the Taliban, . I am thinking of even a relatively liberal country like Malaysia, where they just had a court decide that Christian newspapers cannot use the word Allah. And of Dubai where 2 people got locked up for kissing in public. The list is endless. Yes, there a a lot of rather liberal people in Muslim countries. But think of all the sex and politics in Western books. You really want to tell me that this would be welcomed by majorities in most Muslim countries? What if there was another picture of a religious figure in the books? A joke that would offend Muslims? I really think the only exception they could make without a major revamp of their offerings just for those markets are Jordan and Indonesia at this time. Even bankers have special offerings for Muslim countries, after all.

And what is more sensitive than culture, reading?

[m-reader]

Originally Posted by MattP

I have just noticed this while browsing through the countries that Kindle is shipped and Kindle ebooks can be downloaded. Many of the countries such as Canada that are listed here as non-available can received Kindles. However, the situation with Muslim countries other than Albania and Bosnia still hold.

Where do you get your information from?
Last time I checked Bosnia was 40-ish % Bosniac (Muslim), the rest is split between Serb (Orthodox Christian) and Croat (Catholic Christian) population.
This hardly makes Bosnia-Herzegovina a Muslim country, does it?
Another thing - I don't buy this conspiracy theory excrement. Amazon would sell to the whole world if they could. The deal with e-books and Amazon (as it has been discussed ad nauseam on this forum) is the geographic copyright restrictions AND lack of deals with telcos in perspective countries (for Kindle wireless).

I don't know where you get your information from but you may want to re-check.

[m-reader]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

No, I am not thinking of the Taliban, . I am thinking of even a relatively liberal country like Malaysia, where they just had a court decide that Christian newspapers cannot use the word Allah. And of Dubai where 2 people got locked up for kissing in public. The list is endless. Yes, there a a lot of rather liberal people in Muslim countries. But think of all the sex and politics in Western books. You really want to tell me that this would be welcomed by majorities in most Muslim countries? What if there was another picture of a religious figure in the books? A joke that would offend Muslims? I really think the only exception they could make without a major revamp of their offerings just for those markets are Jordan and Indonesia at this time. Even bankers have special offerings for Muslim countries, after all.

And what is more sensitive than culture, reading?

Hans you are reading too much into it. Things like mainstream media are widely accessible and used in Muslim countries. Information is available and accessed, believe you me.
Should this be the case, then the whole internet would be blocked in most of these countries. Granted, filters are there, but that's different (probably not worse than in China).
These countries are different, but trust me (I'm talking from personal experience here) these people have no issues with mainstream banking, media, books, etc. Let me give you an example - traditional western banking is heavily used in Saudi Arabia - in addition to Islamic banking.

Things are not always as simple as they are portraied in the media.

[m-reader]

As a coincidence, here's a blurb from an UAE paper this morning about e-books:

New York: More than a year after reports emerged that John Grisham would make his books available in electronic format, his publisher made it official on Tuesday, announcing that all 23 of his works can be purchased as e-texts.

"John Grisham is one of the greatest storytellers of all time," Sonny Mehta, chairman and editor-in-chief of the Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group, said in a statement.

"This is one of our most exciting e-book initiatives to date and is certain to usher in a new generation of Grisham readers and e-book adopters," Mehta said.

Grisham, the author of such favourites as The Firm and The Pelican Brief, has expressed mixed feelings about e-books and the quickly growing market, currently estimated at around 3 per cent to 5 per cent of total sales.

In an interview with the Today show last fall, he worried that if e-books really caught on "then you're going to wipe out tons of bookstores and publishers and we're going to buy it all online."

"I'm probably going to be all right," he said, "but the aspiring writers are going to have a very hard time getting published." Knopf Doubleday is a division of Random House Inc.

[kindlekitten]

why don't y'all let Amazon give an official answer instead of mudslinging?

[K-Thom]

why don't y'all let Amazon give an official answer instead of mudslinging?

More fun that way.

[kindlekitten]

yeah, a lot like pig wrasslin'. everyone gets dirty and only the pig has fun

[MattP]

yes, you are right about the markets. however, Pakistan and Bangladesh would still have a huge number of people with enormous wealth, literate in English. the rich in those countries would outnumber many rich but small countries.
However, if you have kindle availability in a number of small and poor countries you would wonder why poor but large countries are not included. Pakistan and Bangladesh are English-speaking countries, so they would have many ready customers for English books. You also have many Arabic speaking countries where English is readily accessible.

Originally Posted by HorridRedDog

Pakistan and Bangladesh do not strike me as countries where the "average" person has a relatively large amount of spare money. Not saying that they don't, though.

You were in Pakistan. All that I see of it is from the news.

Are the people outside of the (Pakistan and Bangladesh) cities able to spend enough to buy a Kindle?

Even in the rural US areas a farmer can buy a Kindle. (If he doesn't have "10 women and have 250 grandchildren".)

Like me, he will think about what else he could use the money on. But Johnny or Judy Appleseed can do it with just a little savings in a week to a month, or two if needed.

A better way to say it is "what is the cost as a percentage of income for all nations?"

Is it easier for a farmer in Germany to buy a Kindle than a Pakistani?
Is it easier for a farmer in Italy to buy a Kindle than in India?
Is it easier for a farmer in Dubai to buy a Kindle than a Bangladesh?

Relative Per Capita Income Rates will make a difference.

It may have nothing to do with religion.

Economically, the farmer in Bangladesh may have more in common with the farmer in the Appalachian mountains. Just plain dirt poor.