Do you pirate books and why?

[ProfCrash]

I am not discussing DRM. I am discussing moving from one medium, LP's, to the new medium, CDs. Or CDs to MP3s or Books to e-books.

Just because I bought the one does not mean I am entitled to the other for free. If I was willing to record my LP somehow to a CD and listen to that, more power to me. But that does not mean that I should have been given free CDs to replace my LPs. If I owned the CDs I should be able to make MP3's and listen to them where I want to. That does not mean that I can go online and download the MP3 from a website for free. If I don't want to make my own MP3 and the MP3 is available for sale I am obligated to buy the MP3.

I can take any book I own and scan it to make it an e-book. That is fine. That does not mean I can go and grab a pirated copy off the internet because I bought the paper book and I don't want to pay for the e-book. If the e-book is available for sale and I don't want to scan my own physical copy of the book then I will have to buy the e-book.

I have no problems with removing DRM. I bought the book or the liscene to the book. I should be able to read it on whatever device I want to.

I do not think that because I bought a paper book 10 years ago I can skip buying the ebook and download the pirated version.

If there is not an e-book version of a paper book that I own and want on my e-reader I have no issues with downloading a pirated version. I will only do this on the condition that when the e-book comes available I will buy the e-book.

[CommonReader]

Originally Posted by Ninjalawyer

What you say makes sense, but there's been a culture change thanks to digital goods. People are now used to the idea of buying an MP3 once and being able to stick it on multiple devices or burn it to CD (i.e. format shifting). It's not the same thing, but people operate by using analogies, and the analogy isn't very hard to make; It's actually very interesting - people have moved from viewing the container (i.e. a paper book or magazine) as the unit of stuff that they're buying to seeing the information in that container as the thing they're buying.

Exactly. I recently purchased a movie on Bluray and it came packaged with a file to watch the movie on a tablet as well. That's the sort of added value I am looking for as a customer.

[JDK1962]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

I am not discussing DRM. I am discussing moving from one medium, LP's, to the new medium, CDs. Or CDs to MP3s or Books to e-books.

Just because I bought the one does not mean I am entitled to the other for free. If I was willing to record my LP somehow to a CD and listen to that, more power to me. But that does not mean that I should have been given free CDs to replace my LPs. If I owned the CDs I should be able to make MP3's and listen to them where I want to. That does not mean that I can go online and download the MP3 from a website for free. If I don't want to make my own MP3 and the MP3 is available for sale I am obligated to buy the MP3.

I can take any book I own and scan it to make it an e-book. That is fine. That does not mean I can go and grab a pirated copy off the internet because I bought the paper book and I don't want to pay for the e-book. If the e-book is available for sale and I don't want to scan my own physical copy of the book then I will have to buy the e-book.

I have no problems with removing DRM. I bought the book or the liscene to the book. I should be able to read it on whatever device I want to.

I do not think that because I bought a paper book 10 years ago I can skip buying the ebook and download the pirated version.

If there is not an e-book version of a paper book that I own and want on my e-reader I have no issues with downloading a pirated version. I will only do this on the condition that when the e-book comes available I will buy the e-book.

I'm not following your logic here. On one hand, you seem to be saying that if I have a CD (i.e., if I've licensed the content), I'm perfectly justified in format-shifting. However, as soon as the Darknet enters into it, everything changes and my format shifting is not OK? I guess I'm looking more at the ends...the means seem beside the point.

My philosophy has always been more that if I've licensed the content once, and I still have the physical media (or saw it destroyed), that's enough. Not asking for handouts, and I'll take care of any format shifting I need to do, but...I bought the right to consume the intellectual property of the CD/book/DVD, and I'm really not going out of my way to ask for permission on how I do that. If the Darknet enters into the equation, I can live with that.

(I'm going to ignore "But that does not mean that I should have been given free CDs to replace my LPs" since that's a straw man...I don't think anyone's seriously claiming that record companies should bear the burden of swapping out physical media.)

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

I can take any book I own and scan it to make it an e-book. That is fine. That does not mean I can go and grab a pirated copy off the internet because I bought the paper book and I don't want to pay for the e-book. If the e-book is available for sale and I don't want to scan my own physical copy of the book then I will have to buy the e-book.

I have no problems with removing DRM. I bought the book or the liscene to the book. I should be able to read it on whatever device I want to.

I do not think that because I bought a paper book 10 years ago I can skip buying the ebook and download the pirated version.

If there is not an e-book version of a paper book that I own and want on my e-reader I have no issues with downloading a pirated version. I will only do this on the condition that when the e-book comes available I will buy the e-book.

This doesn't make sense.

So if an e-book is not legally available, you're allowed to download it from an unauthorized source, but if it is legally available, you have to scan your paper version yourself? Why don't you have to scan it yourself in both cases?

[ProfCrash]

People have suggested that they turn in receipts for books to get the digital copy. So it is not really a straw man.

If the MP3 is a better quality then your copy of your CD you should pay for the MP3. Someone spent time making it a superior version. If you want the superior version you should pay for the superior version. Otherwise, listen to the MP3 you make from the CD you bought.

If you own a book and want the e-book version of it you can scan a copy yourself. That is fair use. You can take the time to clean up the scanning mistakes and make sure it reads nicely. If the e-book is available you can buy the e-book. You pay for it because someone has been paid to clean up the scanned version and make it look nice.

If the e-book version is not available then I am willing to say take a pirated copy but pay for it when the e-book version comes out.

Essentially, in my world, you pay for the version that you have purchased. If you can move that version to another format, good for you. If you can't and you want it in another format then you should pay for that new format. You are not just paying for the content but for the work that goes into developing the new format, putting the item into the new format, storing the new format ect... There are production costs that you pay for with your purchase.

When you buy a paper book you pay for those production costs. When you buy an e-book you are paying for a different type of production cost.

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by Catlady

This doesn't make sense.

So if an e-book is not legally available, you're allowed to download it from an unauthorized source, but if it is legally available, you have to scan your paper version yourself? Why don't you have to scan it yourself in both cases?

You can scan it in both cases. But if the e-book is legally available your purchase cost includes not just the content but the production costs associated with the e-book. In my opinion, and I know that is not worth much, if someone has provided the service you should pay for it.

If you own it and want to take the time to scan it yourself and clean it up, go for it. That is a fair use. But to download a pirated copy means that you are not paying the production cost associated with making the e-book or paying the production cost yourself by scanning and cleaning up the document.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Essentially, in my world, you pay for the version that you have purchased. If you can move that version to another format, good for you. If you can't and you want it in another format then you should pay for that new format. You are not just paying for the content but for the work that goes into developing the new format, putting the item into the new format, storing the new format ect... There are production costs that you pay for with your purchase.

What if someone's willing to do that work for free? Why should you have to pay for it?

Once I scan and convert a book, the work part is done. Why should everyone else who paid for a legit copy have to repeat my effort? That's just wasteful.

Whether I'm allowed to profit from the work is a different matter. But if I'm willing to work for free, why shouldn't I be allowed to share that effort?

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

What if someone's willing to do that work for free? Why should you have to pay for it?

Once I scan and convert a book, the work part is done. Why should everyone else who paid for a legit copy have to repeat my effort? That's just wasteful.

Whether I'm allowed to profit from the work is a different matter. But if I'm willing to work for free, why shouldn't I be allowed to share that effort?

I have the same question. If format shifting is OK, morally and legally, why does it make any difference whether I do the work myself?

There's another thread here about a scanning service that you can pay to scan your paper book.

Suppose you're going to send them the book you own and they say, Heck, we've scanned this book for 500 other customers, we don't need to do it again, so as a special favor we're just going to send you the file we've already created for free. Is it not OK to take advantage of that offer?

[Apache]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

What if someone's willing to do that work for free? Why should you have to pay for it?

Once I scan and convert a book, the work part is done. Why should everyone else who paid for a legit copy have to repeat my effort? That's just wasteful.

Whether I'm allowed to profit from the work is a different matter. But if I'm willing to work for free, why shouldn't I be allowed to share that effort?

For your own use, if you own the book, it should be legal. To allow other people to download your copy of someone else's copyrighted work is piracy.
Apache

[The Terminator]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

It depends on your definition of piracy. I don't consider letting a friend read a book that I've greatly enjoyed when I've finished reading it 'piracy'.

No I wouldn't either, but I think that some paper books say not to let anyone borrow it from you.

[Rhialto]

Originally Posted by The Terminator

No I wouldn't either, but I think that some paper books say not to let anyone borrow it from you.

Really?! Citation please.

[Catlady]

DVDs generally have a warning that public exhibition of the DVD is prohibited. Does that mean I can't invite my neighbors to watch?

[SolRaven]

Originally Posted by Latinandgreek

Methinks that not too many people will answer this poll if they do pirate books, but I would be very interested in finding out how many people do pirate books as opposed to how many purchase them.

I agree. I also think that the third option of "once in a while" is the same as a "yes." They poll didn't ask why someone may pirate a book, just if they did. They could have bought a copy, got locked out of their account, then pirated a replacement. Understandable, but still pirated.

[The Terminator]

Originally Posted by Rhialto

Really?! Citation please.

Yeah, maybe I was wrong. I thought that I remembered seeing that but I can't find anything on Google about it.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by The Terminator

No I wouldn't either, but I think that some paper books say not to let anyone borrow it from you.

There were some paper books that tried to insist that they couldn't be resold at a lower price than the original; the lawsuit over that established the First Sale rights.

A book can say anything inside--including "no part of this book may be copied without written permission from the publisher," even for a public domain text--but that doesn't make it legally enforceable.