The morality of circumventing geographical restrictions only to buy cheaper ebooks

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

I've seen Australia come up more than a few times in a bad way, with regard to (e)book pricing and availability. What-da-frack is going on down there?

Traditional holdover from paper book pricing AFAIK. Same or worse in New Zealand I believe.

[Valentino]

I usually just pirate any book that I can't buy or is price gouging. I know it isn't the authors fault for having a greedy agent/publisher that wants too much for the rights for other countries, or at least that is what I imagine happens while I'm downloading the book for free.

[Logseman]

Price discrimination is as good/evil a practice as is the behavior of searching for the best price. Both vendor and buyer are looking to improve their welfare. If somene says that one is good and the other is bad, it is only because the one saying that is alligned with one of both sets of interests.

[Difflugia]

Originally Posted by Logseman

Price discrimination is as good/evil a practice as is the behavior of searching for the best price. Both vendor and buyer are looking to improve their welfare. If somene says that one is good and the other is bad, it is only because the one saying that is alligned with one of both sets of interests.

Indeed, the main premise of capitalism is that this adversarial relationship will tend to optimize the economy.

I never consider it a moral duty to help anyone's business model succeed. It may be a legal duty in some cases (falsifying data to avoid georestrictions could arguably be considered fraud), but if I had a nickel for every time a law was unjustly applied, I wouldn't need to shop around for price.

[tompe]

You are on purpose buying/taking something that the distributor is not allowed to give you. Seems to me to be copyright infringement and the same as downloading from a torrent site.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by tompe

You are on purpose buying/taking something that the distributor is not allowed to give you. Seems to me to be copyright infringement and the same as downloading from a torrent site.

The seller has made a contract to not knowingly sell outside their territory, This contract does not affect the buyer at all unless the seller makes it explicit that they don't want to sell you the book. The ones I have seen say they are unable to sell you the book.

If there is a big disclaimer that you must agree to stating that you live in a certain geographical area prior to buying the book, then you are possibly committing fraud by agreeing to it.

It is like buying liquor for a minor. The only crime committed is when you give the liquor to the minor. Even if the intent is illegal, which is not the case in buying geographical restricted books, the buying itself is not a crime unless buyer and seller are in collusion.

It is not even vaguely like piracy. You are buying a product, not making an illegal copy. The publisher gets paid his asking price for the copy you bought. The fact that the publisher would get paid more if you bought it elsewhere has no bearing or discount stores, sales flyers etc. would not exist.

I buy items from other countries often. Mostly for availability, sometimes for price. More and more I am able to do it easily, but some sellers do not ship to my country. I can sometimes call up the seller and make a deal to pay for their trouble or have it shipped to a relative and forwarded.

I can also get a relative or acquaintance to buy me the book and give it as a gift. But it seems that I cannot buy the book and give it as a gift to someone else even if they live within the restricted area?

And for people who live in countries that have very high book prices, poor libraries, because that is the way things are. Do you condone price gouging just because they have always done it?

I could understand your indignation if pricing was similar for similar products and a person just had to go to the correct website but this is not the case.

And very few venders are unwillingly tricked these days. Other than checking your IP address they do little or nothing to make sure you actually live there.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

The seller has made a contract to not knowingly sell outside their territory, This contract does not affect the buyer at all unless the seller makes it explicit that they don't want to sell you the book. The ones I have seen say they are unable to sell you the book.

If there is a big disclaimer that you must agree to stating that you live in a certain geographical area prior to buying the book, then you are possibly committing fraud by agreeing to it.

It is like buying liquor for a minor. The only crime committed is when you give the liquor to the minor. Even if the intent is illegal, which is not the case in buying geographical restricted books, the buying itself is not a crime unless buyer and seller are in collusion.

It is not even vaguely like piracy. You are buying a product, not making an illegal copy. The publisher gets paid his asking price for the copy you bought. The fact that the publisher would get paid more if you bought it elsewhere has no bearing or discount stores, sales flyers etc. would not exist.

The publisher does not have a license to make a copy for you. How can that not be copyright infringement?

[tompe]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

And for people who live in countries that have very high book prices, poor libraries, because that is the way things are. Do you condone price gouging just because they have always done it?

I could understand your indignation if pricing was similar for similar products and a person just had to go to the correct website but this is not the case.

Well, the thing I am against is the hypocritical opinion that one type of copyright infringement is OK but not another type. My personal opinion is that both are one the same level and I can accept both sometimes.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by tompe

Well, the thing I am against is the hypocritical opinion that one type of copyright infringement is OK but not another type. My personal opinion is that both are one the same level and I can accept both sometimes.

I don't understand how buying a book legally, even if you tell a lie to do it is copyright infringement.

Do the books themselves stipulate that they cannot be read in a certain areas? I have bought books in Europe and carried them home and finished reading them in Canada.

Most authors would strongly prefer you don't pirate their books, perhaps they also care about where you get them, I doubt it.

Most venders want to get as much as they can for their product, but will settle for a decent price.

Slightly OT, but I can buy a certain product that is only manufactured less than 10 miles from where I live for half the price in another country, including shipping and duty. I don't think that is right, do you?

Canadian paper books are typically $2.00 higher than US. Both prices are printed on the book. The exchange rate is pretty equal and sometimes favors CAD. Same with Michael's flowers. I asked them why and they say US exchange. I pulled out a big pile of US currency and said can I get US prices if I pay in US dollars. The answer is no. Do you consider this ethical?
I can go across the border and save a few bucks if I want to but most can't.
I can also buy the paper or ebook from Amazon at US prices, with no trickery involved even if the Canadian price is higher. Am I pirating the book?
If I buy a book from Canada and send it as a gift to my friend in Romania do they ask me where it is going? I don't know for sure but somehow I doubt it.

If you pay the asking price for the product you are not pirating it that I can see, any more than if you chose a local vender with the lowest prices on anything.

How do you see it as piracy? I am curious to know.

Helen

[tompe]

You are buying something from somebody that cannot legally sell it to you and you do it knowingly.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by tompe

You are buying something from somebody that cannot legally sell it to you and you do it knowingly.

What do I care?

Why should the seller care? Consider this:

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

If I buy a book from Canada and send it as a gift to my friend in Romania do they ask me where it is going? I don't know for sure but somehow I doubt it.

I'm in the Netherlands. Officially, the only place to buy the Kindle is in the US Amazon store. The total price including shipment and import taxes will be around €160.

A Kindle in the UK store costs 109 pounds; 129 euro.
A Kindle in the German store costs 129 euro's.

I can buy virtually anything from Amazon.co.uk or Amazon.de, and they send it to me without problems... but I *CAN'T BUY A KINDLE*. Why the frack can I buy something at Amazon.de or UK that costs €500 and weighs 20 pounds and have it shipped to me, while I Kindle needs to be sent by Amazon US, for an extra €31?!

Therefore I ordered the Kindle with one of my friends, who lives in Germany. He bought it, then gave it to me. Saved me €31. Have I done something illegal? To make it even more funny. My friend and I live about 2 miles apart, on diferent sides of the border.

Later I heard that some big retailers in Germany also carry the Kindle in-store. I live less than 2 miles from one of those retailers. I could basically walk to that store and pick up a Kindle. I live in the Netherlands, so would it be "illegal" for me to do that? If so, nobody cares.

By the way, I did the same with my Nexus 4 phone. It got released in about three-quarters o Europe, and if I remember correctly, even in some second and third world countries; but it didn't get released in The Netherlands. Thereore, Dutch stores were importing the UK and DE Nexus 4 phones (€395 for customers), and selling them for €499, even up to €569.

I took a bus across the border to the big retailer that also happens to carry Kindles, and bought the Nexus there for €395. Why should I pay the Dutch store >= €100 extra?

I'll summarize. In today's world, geo-restrictions are completely useless and idiotic, especially with regard to digital products. In the 90's and before, retailers competed locally. Later, after the internet gained some prominence, they competed on a country level. Now, 20 years later, they compete globally.

I sometimes get things through eBay, paying €5 for a product, including shipping, while THE SAME product in the Netherlands will easily cost me €25 or even more. The only problem is that warranty is basically non-applicable, but on a €5 product, I don't really care.

And... Whaddaya think of this?!

Quote of the beginning of that post:

So, some time ago, received the following e-mail from Diesel.



At the very end of the month (right now, that is), it seems I've got some cash to spare, so I hop over to Diesel, chuck 14 (!) Forgotten Realms novels into my cart (starting with the first one from 1987), apply the promo code, and get my discount. (Over the first $50.) I've done it before, without problems. The cost would be around $2.70 or so per book.

Checkout.... and 12 of the 14 books get removed from my cart because of territorial restrictions. And I'm *not* going to buy these books at a price of €6.04 at Kobo, which is $7.85.

In short, I get an email, touting that there are no geo-restrictions, and then 12 out of 14 books can't be bought because of geo-restrictions?!

After sending an e-mail to Diesel, their response basically was:

"Sorry for the inconvenience."

That cost them a fair bit of money.

I hate geo-restrictions, and if I want something, I *WILL* get it, one way or another. As I'm in the Netherands, even "finding" it on the internet could happen, if it's a digital product.

If we're talking about breaking geo-restrictions solely because of price: it depends. If the gains are big enough (like getting the Nexus 4 from Germany myself: if the shop can import it, I can too), then I will.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by tompe

You are buying something from somebody that cannot legally sell it to you and you do it knowingly.

It definitely has nothing to do with copyright infringement. It is a contract between the publisher and the ebook store and it is the store's responsibility to uphold it, not mine. we deal a lot with grey imports for physical goods --- which happen because an agent/supplier in one country is ripping local customers off and they are looking for better deals elsewhere. The only thing said agent/supplier can do is go to the manufacturer and complain. A publisher's or manufacturer's distribution system doesn't really concern me.

And when I use a US credit card (yes, foreigners can get them, too) then I have actually fulfilled all conditions for a legal sale on Amazon's US store (or any other company's).

[xendula]

Katsunami, there are some MR members who live in the NL and order Kindles in Germany, then get them delivered through Hermes, I think, or to those self service centers in Germany - there are some close to the border.

[latepaul]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

It definitely has nothing to do with copyright infringement. It is a contract between the publisher and the ebook store and it is the store's responsibility to uphold it, not mine.

IANAL but I think it does have to do with copyright infringement because a copy is being made when the book is sold. Only the copyright owner has the right to make copies and those to whom they have granted a license. In the case of books these licenses are usually regional. So if Publisher A has the rights to the book in Country Y but not Country X then it would be breaking the terms of its license to make and sell copies in X and therefore infringing copyright.

The big question is whether the end customer is also liable in any sense. From a purely technical point of view the customer is also making copies when downloading the book to their computer and/or devices. Normally this is covered by the terms of the license inherited from the publisher (through the store), but if the publisher had no rights in the first place then neither does the customer.

Or put it another way - if the book is under copyright then under what license, contract or agreement does the customer gain the right to make their copies? If no such license exists and the customer knows it, how is this not infringing copyright?

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by latepaul

IANAL but I think it does have to do with copyright infringement because a copy is being made when the book is sold. Only the copyright owner has the right to make copies and those to whom they have granted a license. In the case of books these licenses are usually regional. So if Publisher A has the rights to the book in Country Y but not Country X then it would be breaking the terms of its license to make and sell copies in X and therefore infringing copyright.

The big question is whether the end customer is also liable in any sense. From a purely technical point of view the customer is also making copies when downloading the book to their computer and/or devices. Normally this is covered by the terms of the license inherited from the publisher (through the store), but if the publisher had no rights in the first place then neither does the customer.

Or put it another way - if the book is under copyright then under what license, contract or agreement does the customer gain the right to make their copies? If no such license exists and the customer knows it, how is this not infringing copyright?

What country counts when you use a VPN? Digitally you are in another country, so all these considerations might become moot and you might actually be eligible. Also, if the seller has taken reasonable precautions to make sure that the buyer is in the seller's territory, is the contract still valid, is the seller liable? None of this hasn't been tested in court and we are just speculating here. A deal has been made and money has changed hands, so everything is "clean". To compare this with just taking a book and not paying at all is just ridiculous (like comparing jaywalking to murder). Let them come for their paying customers if they want to. In the end, if the authors/publishers actually want to stop it, they can only try to have sellers make more thorough background checks. Which would not be good for sales.