Is Grammar Really That Important Any More? - Page 4

LuvReadin · 04-23-2012, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

"Split infinitives" are merely an example of the Victorian obsession with trying to force English into the mold of Latin grammar, even when it doesn't really fit. In Latin, an infinitive is a single word, and hence can't be split, therefore (the argument ran) you also shouldn't split an infinitive in English. Absolute nonsense (IMHO).

And one almost universally shared by modern authorities on grammar. And yet, it still lingers on, refusing to die!

HarryT · 04-23-2012, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

Let me ask you Harry: where the hell did I say that?

It's what I understood you to mean when you said:

Quote:

shouldn't we all just lighten up a little and accept things for what they are?

My apologies if I misinterpreted what you were saying. Could you explain what you did mean if I got it wrong?

Justin Nemo · 04-23-2012, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's what I understood you to mean when you said:

My apologies if I misinterpreted what you were saying. Could you explain what you did mean if I got it wrong?

Tell you what, why don't you just read the post. I'm sure you're intelligent enough to work it out for yourself.

HarryT · 04-23-2012, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

Tell you what, why don't you just read the post. I'm sure you're intelligent enough to work it out for yourself.

I have read it, and I've obviously misunderstood it. I'm evidently not as intelligent as you think I am!

Justin Nemo · 04-23-2012, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I have read it, and I've obviously misunderstood it. I'm evidently not as intelligent as you think I am!

Indeed

Justin Nemo · 04-23-2012, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's what I understood you to mean when you said:

My apologies if I misinterpreted what you were saying. Could you explain what you did mean if I got it wrong?

OK let me see if I can clarify it for you:

A statement is a definite or clear expression of something in speech or writing. A question however is a sentence worded or expressed so as to elicit information. Any clearer?

HarryT · 04-23-2012, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

A statement is a definite or clear expression of something in speech or writing. A question however is a sentence worded or expressed so as to elicit information. Any clearer?

A question beginning "Shouldn't we...." is, however, generally intended to be rhetorical, with the assumed answer "yes, we should"

.

mr ploppy · 04-23-2012, 12:10 PM

[QUOTE=Stitchawl;2053997]As I think most of us understood the above perfectly, I'd say following exacting grammar rules to be a bit outdated. I think the image below proves the same point with spelling.

/QUOTE]

Not only can I read it, but I can read it at my normal reading speed. Which is even more odd since mistakes in normal text always leap out at me. I just can't switch the proof reader part of me off, even when I'm reading for fun rather than money. It's probably down to what you can accept as normal reality. I can't remember what it was called now, but Ian Banks wrote a book like that. A lot of people at the time said it was unreadable, but I didn't have any problems with it.

Justin Nemo · 04-23-2012, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

A question beginning "Shouldn't we...." is, however, generally intended to be rhetorical, with the assumed answer "yes, we should"

.

That would be correct if your statement was true. But the question didn't begin that way did it? The question was:

“But does this, as Doc Nafario suggests, make you feel as though you are doing all the work of the author, or shouldn't we all just lighten up a little and accept things for what they are?”

How could I make an assumption from the first part of that sentence?

HarryT · 04-23-2012, 12:16 PM

That's a good point. Fair enough.

morriss003 · 04-23-2012, 02:28 PM

Being able to understand something does not make it a pleasure to read. I like to feel pleasure when I read, so I don't appreciate the challenge of poor spelling and grammar. A few mistakes are not a problem; every writer does that.

Rob Lister · 04-23-2012, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

That would be correct if your statement was true. But the question didn't begin that way did it? The question was:

“But does this, as Doc Nafario suggests, make you feel as though you are doing all the work of the author, or shouldn't we all just lighten up a little and accept things for what they are?”

How could I make an assumption from the first part of that sentence?

yes. i paid him to do the work, too.

stickybuns · 04-23-2012, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

Spending most of my life in academia, I found waaaay too many people concerned more about grammar and spelling than about content. To me, that is just wrong on so many levels, and all too often wipes out that spark of desire to 'learn' that brings people to higher education in the first place.

Stitchawl

Actually, a strong understanding of grammar can go hand-in-hand with content. A writer who understands the power behind even the smallest change in sentence structure--and not just how to eliminate errors and mistakes--will be a stronger writer.

Let's imagine a writer going through a multi draft editing process. On the first draft, she writes, "I like coffee. I don't like cake." Each of these sentences is grammatically correct on its own; however, the space in-between the sentences is a cavern of lost potential meaning. What is the relationship between the coffee and the cake?

Trying again, the writer combines her sentences: "I like coffee, but I don't like cake." We now have a coordinating conjunction, which places "coffee" and "cake" in the same category of things. In other words, they are merely items on a vast list of things. Here is my list of things I like. Here is my things I don't like. Why not pick one from each list and slap them together in a sentence?

Perhaps the writer decides to forgo the conjunctions and simply uses a semi-colon: "I like coffee; I don't like cake." As a strong grammarian, she knows that a semi-colon is used when there is a relationship between the two independent clauses. The sentence becomes slightly more intriguing: is a love of cake to be expected from someone who enjoys coffee? On the other hand, is disliking cake simply the logical consequence of liking coffee?

The writer tries once more to use grammar to express meaning. This time, she adds a subordinator: "I like coffee; unfortunately, I don't like cake." Suddenly, her sentence begins to tell a story of guilt and regret, which to my eyes is much more enticing to read than the two lonely and isolated sentences from the beginning of this journey.

ApK · 04-23-2012, 04:49 PM

Stickybuns? Coffee? Cake?
All this grammar talk is making me hungry.

DrNefario · 04-23-2012, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Nemo

You just gave me work then, working out that you meant by rather then, rather than, rather than. Not easy is it?

Heh.

The difference is that I accept that it was a mistake, rather than pretending it doesn't matter.

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04-23-2012, 12:10 PM	#53
mr ploppy Feral Underclass Posts: 3,622 Karma: 26821535 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Yorkshire, tha noz Device: 2nd hand paperback	[QUOTE=Stitchawl;2053997]As I think most of us understood the above perfectly, I'd say following exacting grammar rules to be a bit outdated. I think the image below proves the same point with spelling. /QUOTE] Not only can I read it, but I can read it at my normal reading speed. Which is even more odd since mistakes in normal text always leap out at me. I just can't switch the proof reader part of me off, even when I'm reading for fun rather than money. It's probably down to what you can accept as normal reality. I can't remember what it was called now, but Ian Banks wrote a book like that. A lot of people at the time said it was unreadable, but I didn't have any problems with it.

04-23-2012, 12:16 PM	#55
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	That's a good point. Fair enough.

04-23-2012, 02:28 PM	#56
morriss003 Evangelist Posts: 438 Karma: 3409790 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Maui Device: kindle	Being able to understand something does not make it a pleasure to read. I like to feel pleasure when I read, so I don't appreciate the challenge of poor spelling and grammar. A few mistakes are not a problem; every writer does that.

04-23-2012, 04:49 PM	#59
ApK Award-Winning Participant Posts: 7,316 Karma: 67862884 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: NJ, USA Device: Kindle	Stickybuns? Coffee? Cake? All this grammar talk is making me hungry.

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