Kindle or EPUB?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

On that subject, how do you go about getting K3 files onto your PC so that you can remove DRM?

You can get files off (or onto) your K3 just by plugging it in to your computer using the USB cable.

But that won't help with DRM. I'm reluctant to be more explicit here. Try finding Apprentice Alf's blog.

[Bookworm_Girl]

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

So does that mean that all the eBook sellers are linked with specific eReaders. So, if I bought a Sony, for instance, I couldn't just buy an ePUB from anywhere - it would have to be an ePUB with DRM that matched my Sony - so specific eBook sellers that have an arrangement with Sony? Is that right?

What about libraries - Do they all use the same DRM on their ePUBs?

Hello, nowthenmobile. I recently helped a friend in southern England make a similar decision. The UK does not have as many elibraries as here in the US. Unfortunately for my friend, his county elibrary (Isle of Wight) only had audiobooks. The next nearest county (Hampshire) had a significant selection of ebooks so it varies by where you live. I suggest you find out if your local area has an elibrary and if so browse its website. Does it have the ebooks you are interested in? The majority of elibraries in both the US and UK get their books through a company called Overdrive. There should be FAQs on your local elibrary website that tell you what devices work with their system. The Overdrive ebooks use Adobe DRM for EPUBs and PDFs which is compatible with Sony, Nook, Kobo and perhaps others too. They do not work with the Kindle.

Most EPUB ebooks will work with a variety of ereaders. The big exception is ebooks sold through the Barnes and Noble website because B&N uses a more advanced DRM for their EPUBs that only works with the Nook at the moment. Apple iBooks does something similar with DRM on their EPUBs too. You should be aware that bookstores have geographic restrictions. That means since you are located in the UK you will be limited to what you can buy on the Barnes and Noble US bookstore if you go with the Nook. Similarly, since I am located outside the UK, I can't just buy any ebook from UK booksellers.

No worries though. There are some really great websites for ebooks in the UK. I suggest you go to the WH Smith and Waterstones websites and browse their ebook selections. Both of these websites also sell ereaders, and you can see that there are many ereader brand options. For example, ebooks that you buy from these stores will work with Sony, Nook and Kobo. Also you might want to see if your local bookstore has an ereader display. I know that I have seen them on display in both WH Smith and Waterstones before.

So what did my friend buy? He went with the Kindle 3 Wifi. Why? Because he didn't have an elibrary option and he wanted the cheapest ereader. He only plans to read his books once so future access or portability wasn't a concern to him.

I have both Sony and Kindle ereaders. My primary ereader is Sony. Why? Because I do read a great number of elibrary books. Also I purchase quite a few books. If 6 months from now some hardware manufacturer comes out with the best EPUB ereader ever, then I will more than likely be able to read my previous purchases on that ereader too. I prefer the flexibility of the EPUB format and the ability to use it with multiple devices. Also I like the option to shop at different stores for the best prices. I am not locked into the Sony ebookstore.

Hope that helps. The best advice I gave my friend was that I thought he would be happy with either option. Ereaders are awesome devices. So don't spend too much time stressing over your decision. Good luck!

[nowthenmobile]

Thank you Bookworm_Girl.
You talk about being able to shop around and for best prices; have you found that you can buy cheaper than Amazon? I have only done a few comparisons but so far Amazon seem to be significantly cheaper than say WH Smith or Waterstones.
You say that you read a lot of elibrary books; do you get them from your local library or have you somehow managed to enrol in lots?

I think that I am leaning away from Amazon. It seems that a lot of people have the Sony but I think the price will be a little too steep for me. If I buy another eReader that can read ePUBs will I be able to shop at the same stores that Sony owners do?

Can you suggest an alternative to Sony that is cheaper?

Thanks

[Bookworm_Girl]

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

Thank you Bookworm_Girl.
You talk about being able to shop around and for best prices; have you found that you can buy cheaper than Amazon? I have only done a few comparisons but so far Amazon seem to be significantly cheaper than say WH Smith or Waterstones.
You say that you read a lot of elibrary books; do you get them from your local library or have you somehow managed to enrol in lots?

I think that I am leaning away from Amazon. It seems that a lot of people have the Sony but I think the price will be a little too steep for me. If I buy another eReader that can read ePUBs will I be able to shop at the same stores that Sony owners do?

Can you suggest an alternative to Sony that is cheaper?

Thanks

Yes, the prices of ereaders in the UK is quite high, and I sympathize with you! That was ultimately why my English friend went with the Kindle 3 Wifi-only version.

I get my ebooks from my local library. I am very fortunate that I live in an area where the local city libraries have pooled together into one large website that serves the entire county and therefore a very large population. Thus the selection of ebooks is quite excellent.

WH Smith and Waterstones are probably the most popular ebook sites in the UK. Some publishers like Penguin UK also sell direct on their website. Kobobooks.com is a Canadian company and might have a good selection for UK users. I buy frequently from their website. Other companies in the US are booksonboard.com, ebooks.com and booksamillion.com just to name a few of the more popular options. But as I said before, there will be geographic restrictions because a US bookseller can't sell every ebook to a non-US resident. It's not the booksellers fault. It's the publisher that says what countries the bookseller can sell certain books too.

The Sony UK website has some info on where to find ebooks. It also has a UK library finder that might help you.
http://www.sony.co.uk/hub/reader-want/6/2

From what I know from helping my friend, Amazon UK often does have the cheapest prices. It's not always the case in the US. We have what is called "agency pricing". Certain big publishers have told the booksellers that they must sell their ebooks for a set price, no discounts or sales allowed. Thus many ebooks are priced the exact same at all the booksellers. Agency pricing hasn't come to the UK yet, but the publishers are trying to implement it. There have been many articles in the UK news recently on this subject. Hachette seems to be the first publisher in the UK attempting to implement agency pricing.

In the US the Nook Wifi and Kobo are popular low-cost options to the Sony. Somebody who lives in the UK would be better than me to offer suggestions of other ereaders. Yes, if you buy another EPUB ereader, you generally should be able to shop at the same stores as a Sony user if they say they are compatible with Adobe Digital Editions. I see that the WH Smith website sells Sony, Samsung and iRiver brands. It looks like Waterstones sells just Sony. I know that you can buy other ereaders from outside the UK, but I think the price increases significantly because of the import fees, exchange rates and 3rd party shipping companies you have to deal with. So I'm not sure it's worth it? Now you see why a lot of people in the UK have the Sony.

One thing that nobody has mentioned is that the Kindle has better magazine and newspaper options. You can buy individual editions or subscriptions. I will on occasion buy an issue of the Daily Mail on my Kindle. It's not many pictures and mostly text. However, it's pretty good for me to keep up to date with the British news. Easy access to newspapers was the other reason why my friend went with the Kindle. He doesn't subscribe to a print daily, and he travels out of country sometimes and wanted to see the news back home. You should look at the options on the Amazon UK website to see if that appeals to you.

I have had several Sony ereaders, and I also have a Kindle 3 Wifi only. I like them both. If you don't have library access and Amazon UK offers the cheapest books for you, then I don't think you can go wrong with a Kindle. I am a very analytical person as you can probably tell by my lengthy, detailed postings! I often get paralyzed making a decision because I have to research all the available information. I honestly and sincerely don't think you could go wrong with either option and will be happy with your decision either way.

[nowthenmobile]

"I am a very analytical person as you can probably tell by my lengthy, detailed postings! I often get paralyzed making a decision because I have to research all the available information."
I'm with you - it's being hard up that does it to me.
I really appreciate your postings...and everyone else that has contributed.

I have to say that it is a real pleasure to be on a forum where all the contributors use such excellent English. I find it somewhat intimidating actually.

[desertgrandma]

Doing a lot of research has its value.........but in the meantime you are missing out on some great reading.

Now...the Kindle has a 30 day return policy, no question asked, just pay postage.....US, of course, not sure what the policies are outside of us.

I'm sure the Sony and others off a similar warranty.

You will never know which is perfect for you until you actually have the device in your hands, and use it for a while.

Jump in.......the waters fine.

[ShellShock]

I live in the UK and have recently bought a Sony PRS 650; I had a Sony PRS 505 before. Here are my experiences:

When I bought the 505 Kindle's weren't really available in the UK direct from Amazon. I prefer the more stylish design (no ugly keyboard!) of the Sony, and still do. I have no use for the wifi/3G of the Kindle either.

I buy mainly from WHSmith (UK), Waterstones (UK) and Fictionwise (USA), and only from other sources (Amazon) when I can't get what I want. The selection at WHSmith and Waterstones is OK, and improving, and they sometimes have special deals.

Epub (without DRM) is a great format, and arguably more advanced than the mobi format used by Amazon. You can easily convert from other formats to epub using Calibre; if you want to take this further, you can also easily "tweak" epubs to get the style you like most, e.g., changing fonts, adjusting page margins, removing extra lines between paragraphs. My pet hate are ebooks that have a lot wasted space on the screen (wide margins, lines between paragraphs etc), so I like to "fix" these, which is easy with epubs (an epub is just a zip file--change the file extension to .zip and you can extract the contents for editing).

So, using non-DRM epub gives the best reading experience and future proofing, in my opinion, especially outside the USA.

[nowthenmobile]

Is it possible to buy non-DRM ePUBs for anything other than out-of-copyright books?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

Is it possible to buy non-DRM ePUBs for anything other than out-of-copyright books?

Yes, but it depends on the publisher publishing them without DRM. Kai Lung Raises His Voice is without DRM.

[nowthenmobile]

My apologies; I ought not to have phrased the question like that; I didn't really want to know if it was "possible" because you had already drawn Kai Lung to my attention. What I really meant to ask was whether it was very common?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

My apologies; I ought not to have phrased the question like that; I didn't really want to know if it was "possible" because you had already drawn Kai Lung to my attention. What I really meant to ask was whether it was very common?

Ah. Sorry - I didn't notice which thread I was in.

No, currently it's not very common. All the major publishers add DRM to their ePubs. Some smaller speciality publishers do not. The obvious example is Baen Books, but there are a few others.

I'm hopeful that this will change over the next five years.

[nowthenmobile]

After searching around it seems like the only show in town (the UK) (aside from the Kindle) is Sony. If you look on ebay, the second hand ones are mostly Sonys. Ebay's second-hand prices are preposterous; I can't understand the bidders. They knock a third off the price to buy a used piece of old technology. Waterstones have an attractive deal on the Sony PRS 350 (£139 I think) but I think we might miss the extra 1 inch. What I don't understand is how the other manufacturers are competing with Kindle and Sony. Some of them are charging the same kind of price as Sony but without the brand confidence of the Sony - Strange. I think the 650 looks like the business but at twice the price of the Kindle 3 it's not an easy sell. It strikes me that this is not really the right time to buy - just as the new high contrast screen is entering the market. When everyone has upgraded then prices will be a little keener. Maybe I should buy a Kindle and just fill it with classics and occasionally take advantage of Amazon's cheap prices. Still, the ability to borrow ePUBs would be such an advantage....and I despise Amazon for not reading ePUBs. I think it is anti-competitive, but it is people like me that allow them to get away with it.

[=X=]

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

.... Still, the ability to borrow ePUBs would be such an advantage....and I despise (emp mine) Amazon for not reading ePUBs. I think it is anti-competitive, but it is people like me that allow them to get away with it.

Wow such a strong word. So of all the things you can focus you hate at, you choose this?

Actually I'll disagree with you here, it is not the lack of reading ePUB that is makes it anti-competitive, it's DRM. And all the major publishers are guilty of it.


There are plenty of places outside of Amazon where you can buy books for your Kindle. You can still buy books from Smashword, Bean, Oriely to name a few.

Saying Amazon would be open because it reads Adobe ePUB is a false statement because one company owns that DRM and it's Adobe. For all you know Adobe can in one swoop close down access to all the other stores and open its own store and know everybody is in the same boat and Kindle owners.


=X=

[Madam Broshkina]

There is an interesting article at Nate's "The Digital Reader" site. It states that if Amazon went with ePub they would become an outright monopoly in the ebook biz.

http://www.the-digital-reader.com/20...ks/#more-10501

[Bookworm_Girl]

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

After searching around it seems like the only show in town (the UK) (aside from the Kindle) is Sony. If you look on ebay, the second hand ones are mostly Sonys. Ebay's second-hand prices are preposterous; I can't understand the bidders. They knock a third off the price to buy a used piece of old technology. Waterstones have an attractive deal on the Sony PRS 350 (£139 I think) but I think we might miss the extra 1 inch. What I don't understand is how the other manufacturers are competing with Kindle and Sony. Some of them are charging the same kind of price as Sony but without the brand confidence of the Sony - Strange. I think the 650 looks like the business but at twice the price of the Kindle 3 it's not an easy sell. It strikes me that this is not really the right time to buy - just as the new high contrast screen is entering the market. When everyone has upgraded then prices will be a little keener. Maybe I should buy a Kindle and just fill it with classics and occasionally take advantage of Amazon's cheap prices. Still, the ability to borrow ePUBs would be such an advantage....and I despise Amazon for not reading ePUBs. I think it is anti-competitive, but it is people like me that allow them to get away with it.

You have clearly done your research since your initial post. Well done at sorting out the complexities of the ebook market! I think you have summed it up very well. I am surprised that Sony didn't make their new models more price-competitive but that's the typical approach they take with most of their products. It is a well-made, high quality product. Perhaps there will be some markdowns for the Christmas buying season? The WH Smith website is offering the PRS-350 for £129 right now. The 5" seems small to me too, but a lot of people really do like it. Maybe there is a store near you that you could check out the display models. If borrowing EPUBs from a library is a viable option for you, then it might not take long before you borrow enough books to recoup the price difference of the PRS-650 compared to the Kindle. Just another thought.

The ereader and ebook industry is still relatively young. Who can guess what the future holds? It might not be either the Amazon or the EPUB format that ultimately prevails. Maybe eventually there will be no DRM similar to how the digital music industry is evolving. It is frustrating that Amazon has introduced a format that is contrary to the rest of the industry and only works with their ereaders. Of course I understand their business model but that doesn't mean as a consumer that I still can't be frustrated by it. It is frustrating that some authors are signing exclusive deals to publish some of their ebooks with Amazon only. It is also frustrating that Barnes & Noble and Apple iBooks have introduced DRM standards on their EPUB books that don't work with all ereaders that read EPUBs. I want the digital book market to be successful, and I want as many people to have access to the books that they want to read as possible.

But as desertgrandma said earlier, the point of the ereader is to read. And, I still think that either the Sony or the Kindle option will provide a happy ereading experience once you make your decision.