A nexus in eBook formats ? - Page 2

JSWolf · 06-06-2007, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikecook

Thanks Robert, this is good information to know.

It also looks like the v2.0 framework is close to being approved so now could be a good time to start learning about the OEBPS format.

Now, Jon...

Sorry but I've heard this argument before and it still makes no sense! If your turntable/CD player/iPod (i.e. ebook reader) is old technology and you wish to go out and purchase the all-new-fangled device then yes, you DO have to go out and purchase all your favourite music (eBooks) again. This is the way the world works.

But I do agree with most of what you're saying -- When you buy a CD, you expect (and know) it will play in any manufacturers CD player. The same thing should apply with eBooks. Maybe OEBPS is taking us a step close.

But, using the CD as an example, if I have the ability to play an LP or a cassette, I can then convert these into a CD using a stand alone CD writer or my computer so I still have the music I purchased in the newer technology. Also take blu-ray DVD for another example. I can still play my existing DVDs. The problem is if I was to someday down the line replace my Sony Reader, there is no guarantee that I would be able to use the books purchased for it in the new reader. They expect us to either repurchase what we already have because we need a new format or be tied to the old device (as long as it works). This is just as stupid as saying.. you can read your paperback book now but if in the future you need glasses or your prescription changes, you'll need to purchase a new paperback copy to be able to read said book.

bowerbird · 06-09-2007, 03:33 PM

i mentioned my "zen markup language" earlier in this thread.

it was designed with the ideal of taking a plain-ascii e-text
-- exactly like the ones that you find in project gutenberg --
and (via some automatic handling from the viewer-program)
transforming it into a powerful fully-functional electronic-book.

another benchmark is turning it into .html for view on the web.

you can now go to a website to see z.m.l. in action:
> http://www.z-m-l.com

on the "examples" screen, you can click on the links to
see the plain-ascii z.m.l. file that is used as the "master".

you can also click each button to see the .html file that is
automatically generated from that plain-ascii master file...

from that .html, of course, you can generate a plethora
of other formats as well. the point is that the "master"
is in a plain-ascii format, and thus can be distributed with
all of the ease and convenience that such files give to us.

(production and maintenance of files in this format is also
a breeze, owing to this plain-ascii nature, since there are
tons of tools out there capable of handling files like those.)

in the evolution of e-book formats, some light markup format
-- whether it be z.m.l. or "markdown" or "textile" -- will win...

the days of heavy markup -- like docbook or .tei or .oebps --
are finished. they are too complex for the average person,
and us little guys are not about to sacrifice the revolution that
the web gives to us, which is that _anyone_ can be a publisher.

-bowerbird

Azayzel · 06-09-2007, 07:32 PM

That's actually a pretty snazy way to reformat plain ascii to something much more useful. I was originally thinking that XML would be a great way to preserve content and reformat at a later date, but it would be nice if there was an app that, based on what it encounters in the text, reformats to a desired output. HTML seems where everything is going in the current period, just take a look at all of the "web" devices that are being marketed/created.

bowerbird · 06-13-2007, 06:15 PM

azayzel said:
> That's actually a pretty snazy way to reformat plain ascii
> to something much more useful.

thanks.

i'm curious as to whether my .html serves well when
converted to the various formats for handheld devices.

i'd appreciate any feedback anyone had regarding that.

-bowerbird

nekokami · 06-14-2007, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikecook

Sorry but I've heard this argument before and it still makes no sense! If your turntable/CD player/iPod (i.e. ebook reader) is old technology and you wish to go out and purchase the all-new-fangled device then yes, you DO have to go out and purchase all your favourite music (eBooks) again. This is the way the world works.

Er... no. I was able to convert many of my LPs to cassette, and then CD format. I only bought CDs where the quality of the music mattered enough to me that the higher fidelity of the CD offered enough extra value to justify the expense. And Apple has made it quite easy to convert CDs to play on the iPod.

In any case, the two aren't really comparable, because, apart from sheet music, there has never been a long-lived portable storage mechanism for music, so people accept limitations as we try to find one. The same is not true for books, which have been around for thousands of years. The "extra features" of ebooks (e.g. low weight/volume, searchability) have not yet provided enough value for people to be willing to accept having to replace them whenever the manufacturers come out with a new device or format. I'm not sure if there is any feature set that would make this a good value proposition. I think a portable format (read: no DRM) will be critical for full market acceptance of ebooks.

yvanleterrible · 06-14-2007, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nekokami

Er... no. I was able to convert many of my LPs to cassette, and then CD format. I only bought CDs where the quality of the music mattered enough to me that the higher fidelity of the CD offered enough extra value to justify the expense. And Apple has made it quite easy to convert CDs to play on the iPod.

In any case, the two aren't really comparable, because, apart from sheet music, there has never been a long-lived portable storage mechanism for music, so people accept limitations as we try to find one. The same is not true for books, which have been around for thousands of years. The "extra features" of ebooks (e.g. low weight/volume, searchability) have not yet provided enough value for people to be willing to accept having to replace them whenever the manufacturers come out with a new device or format. I'm not sure if there is any feature set that would make this a good value proposition. I think a portable format (read: no DRM) will be critical for full market acceptance of ebooks.

And cheaper reading devices if I may add. No one wants to spend long hours reading chained to a computer.

NatCh · 06-14-2007, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nekokami

I think a portable format (read: no DRM) will be critical for full market acceptance of ebooks.

I can, conceptually, at least, imagine a DRM approach that wouldn't hinder acceptance. It would have to be a 'standard' approach so that it could be used across multiple platforms, and would have to allow things like 3rd party xfrs and such. It would have to be pretty cleverly built though, and I don't think that's likely to happen: the DRM folks seem to be sinking all their 'cleverness' into prohibiting this sort of thing.

NOTE: I am not saying that I want DRM, only that I can imagine that there might be some approach that could be livable. Further, i agree in advance with all those who will tell me that this will never happen. I'm dreamin' here, okay?

JSWolf · 06-14-2007, 11:56 AM

One problem as I see it is this.. Both myself and my wife have a Sony Reader. I can connect her reader to my computer and we can both read the same books purchased at the connect store. But, if I do that, the books she has from there cannot be read as long as she is active on my computer. Then we have to deactivate her from me and back to her computer and the books she has from my computer no longer work. It would be good if all the devices in one household would work with whatever books were purchased on whatever computer. That would make DRM a lot more useful. As it stands, DRM is a hinderence. I do not want to have to purchase seperate copies of books just to be able to read them on multiple devices. Basically, once my $50 credit is up, I'm purchasing books I can deal with the way I want. So Sony, all I can say is SCREW UP GUYS! (Thanks Eric Cartman for that line)

Is there a DRM that that does anyone any good? Let's try this scenario (not true, but not impossible). Let's say the Sony Connect store goes away. I have on my computer all the books I have purchased from there. my wife has all her books she's purchased. We have her reader registered on my computer so she can read some of my books. We then go back to her computer to register her reader there so she can read some of her books. But wait, the connect software might not be able to connect to the Connect store to authorize her reader (if that's how it works), what do we do with the books she has since she can no longer read them?

Mobipocket is registered via a name and credit card number. So you change your credit card number. And you purchase new books with your new credit card. Can you read the old books while the new books are registered? Do you have to keep switching info to read the old vs. the new?

DRM is more a hassle then it is worth. Give me one instance where DRM does ME any good in the long run.

Jon

NatCh · 06-14-2007, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

It would be good if all the devices in one household would work with whatever books were purchased on whatever computer.

If you had set both computers and Readers up on the same ConnStore account, you would be able to do just exactly that -- that's part of the reason they allow 6 devices on a single account, I believe.

If you're interested in doing that after the fact, I know that others have had some success with getting them to combine two accounts (move all the books from one to the other, and close the empty one) when they made it clear that they wanted to delete the extra account.

JSWolf · 06-14-2007, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatCh

If you had set both computers and Readers up on the same ConnStore account, you would be able to do just exactly that -- that's part of the reason they allow 6 devices on a single account, I believe.

If you're interested in doing that after the fact, I know that others have had some success with getting them to combine two accounts (move all the books from one to the other, and close the empty one) when they made it clear that they wanted to delete the extra account.

Dear, please get off your computer now, I want to buy a book. But I'm in the middle of reading the forum. You can do that after I spend hours and hours trying to find a book on the Connect site because the connect site is a POS and doesn't easily let you find anything you might actually want.

NatCh · 06-14-2007, 12:14 PM

I know you don't like the ConnStore -- you're hardly alone in that -- I'm simply pointing out that you can do what you said you wanted to do (and if you do it, you can buy books from the POS ConnStore on the other computer, while the one is being used to read MobileRead).

JSWolf · 06-14-2007, 04:03 PM

If someone has a palm and is using that to read purchased PDB format books, can those books be moved over to the iLiad.

06-14-2007, 11:56 AM	#23
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 73,972 Karma: 128903378 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	One problem as I see it is this.. Both myself and my wife have a Sony Reader. I can connect her reader to my computer and we can both read the same books purchased at the connect store. But, if I do that, the books she has from there cannot be read as long as she is active on my computer. Then we have to deactivate her from me and back to her computer and the books she has from my computer no longer work. It would be good if all the devices in one household would work with whatever books were purchased on whatever computer. That would make DRM a lot more useful. As it stands, DRM is a hinderence. I do not want to have to purchase seperate copies of books just to be able to read them on multiple devices. Basically, once my $50 credit is up, I'm purchasing books I can deal with the way I want. So Sony, all I can say is SCREW UP GUYS! (Thanks Eric Cartman for that line) Is there a DRM that that does anyone any good? Let's try this scenario (not true, but not impossible). Let's say the Sony Connect store goes away. I have on my computer all the books I have purchased from there. my wife has all her books she's purchased. We have her reader registered on my computer so she can read some of my books. We then go back to her computer to register her reader there so she can read some of her books. But wait, the connect software might not be able to connect to the Connect store to authorize her reader (if that's how it works), what do we do with the books she has since she can no longer read them? Mobipocket is registered via a name and credit card number. So you change your credit card number. And you purchase new books with your new credit card. Can you read the old books while the new books are registered? Do you have to keep switching info to read the old vs. the new? DRM is more a hassle then it is worth. Give me one instance where DRM does ME any good in the long run. Jon Last edited by JSWolf; 06-14-2007 at 12:02 PM.

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06-09-2007, 03:33 PM	#17
bowerbird Banned Posts: 269 Karma: -273 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: los angeles	i mentioned my "zen markup language" earlier in this thread. it was designed with the ideal of taking a plain-ascii e-text -- exactly like the ones that you find in project gutenberg -- and (via some automatic handling from the viewer-program) transforming it into a powerful fully-functional electronic-book. another benchmark is turning it into .html for view on the web. you can now go to a website to see z.m.l. in action: > http://www.z-m-l.com on the "examples" screen, you can click on the links to see the plain-ascii z.m.l. file that is used as the "master". you can also click each button to see the .html file that is automatically generated from that plain-ascii master file... from that .html, of course, you can generate a plethora of other formats as well. the point is that the "master" is in a plain-ascii format, and thus can be distributed with all of the ease and convenience that such files give to us. (production and maintenance of files in this format is also a breeze, owing to this plain-ascii nature, since there are tons of tools out there capable of handling files like those.) in the evolution of e-book formats, some light markup format -- whether it be z.m.l. or "markdown" or "textile" -- will win... the days of heavy markup -- like docbook or .tei or .oebps -- are finished. they are too complex for the average person, and us little guys are not about to sacrifice the revolution that the web gives to us, which is that _anyone_ can be a publisher. -bowerbird

06-09-2007, 07:32 PM	#18
Azayzel Cache Ninja! Posts: 643 Karma: 1002300 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Tokyo, Japan Device: PRS-500, HTC Shift, iPod Touch, iPaq 4150, TC1100, Panasonic WordsGear	That's actually a pretty snazy way to reformat plain ascii to something much more useful. I was originally thinking that XML would be a great way to preserve content and reformat at a later date, but it would be nice if there was an app that, based on what it encounters in the text, reformats to a desired output. HTML seems where everything is going in the current period, just take a look at all of the "web" devices that are being marketed/created.

06-13-2007, 06:15 PM	#19
bowerbird Banned Posts: 269 Karma: -273 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: los angeles	azayzel said: > That's actually a pretty snazy way to reformat plain ascii > to something much more useful. thanks. i'm curious as to whether my .html serves well when converted to the various formats for handheld devices. i'd appreciate any feedback anyone had regarding that. -bowerbird

06-14-2007, 12:14 PM	#26
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3	I know you don't like the ConnStore -- you're hardly alone in that -- I'm simply pointing out that you can do what you said you wanted to do (and if you do it, you can buy books from the POS ConnStore on the other computer, while the one is being used to read MobileRead).

06-14-2007, 04:03 PM	#27
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 73,972 Karma: 128903378 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	If someone has a palm and is using that to read purchased PDB format books, can those books be moved over to the iLiad.