interesting NYT article on "copyright morality"

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Alan

This is exactly the point. Paper books as well as analog tapes have a built in copy protection. You can copy them only with a lot of efforts or just a few times. Digital media can be copied an unlimited amount of times. Thus it needs some type of "artificial" copy protection to have the same level of protection as paper books and analog media have.

Yes, but why do you need the same level of protection as a paper book? Remember also that nearly all books that are easy to copy from darknet is scans of paper books.

BTW: There is a school directly in front of my office window. During breaks there are hundreds of students outside the building. I guess about 75 % of them are using an mp3 player or at least have one with them. If we would ask them how many of the songs on their players are legally obtained, what to you think would be the result? I think 10 % for iPod user and 2 % for all other would be a good number. But maybe I'm a little bit too optimistic here.

So what is the point of this example?

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

I can't recall making any such 'categorical' statements.
Did you have any in particular in mind?
If you 'have support for this claim' - it'd help jog my memory .

Sorry. I mixed up who had written what. I was thinking about statements by Alan.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by tompe

Yes, but why do you need the same level of protection as a paper book? Remember also that nearly all books that are easy to copy from darknet is scans of paper books.

Scanning books takes a lot of effort and especially time. Every single page has to be scanned and formatted. It is not just one click and you've got it, although OCR helps a lot.

If ebooks one day will be successful on the market than the work of the authors needs to be protected just as paper books are today (naturally, because they are physical goods). If they are not being protected, we will certainly see the same as on the music market, where people can get everything for free in seconds.

So what is the point of this example?

To show that the majority of music on mp3 players has been illegally be downloaded from the Internet and not been bought at legitimate online shops.

Alan

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Alan

If ebooks one day will be successful on the market than the work of the authors needs to be protected just as paper books are today (naturally, because they are physical goods). If they are not being protected, we will certainly see the same as on the music market, where people can get everything for free in seconds.

Now you are again assuming that how producers of books are compensated must work as it do today.

To show that the majority of music on mp3 players has been illegally be downloaded from the Internet and not been bought at legitimate online shops.

Yes. And what is the problem with that? Before the net for most people nearly all the music they had was on tapes that had not been bought in a shop. Artists are still making money and producing music.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by tompe

Now you are again assuming that how producers of books are compensated must work as it do today.

I assume people will want to get paid for their work. And this will not change. As we see it on the music market, most music consumed today has not being paid for.

Yes. And what is the problem with that? Before the net for most people nearly all the music they had was on tapes that had not been bought in a shop. Artists are still making money and producing music.

The music market dropped back to the revenues of 1993. Profit might even be worse. Of course this does not come to a surprise. If everything is available for free, less people will pay for it.

Alan

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by Alan

BTW: There is a school directly in front of my office window. During breaks there are hundreds of students outside the building. I guess about 75 % of them are using an mp3 player or at least have one with them. If we would ask them how many of the songs on their players are legally obtained, what to you think would be the result? I think 10 % for iPod user and 2 % for all other would be a good number. But maybe I'm a little bit too optimistic here.

I think you should do that survey. I suspect you'll find that a lot more people are ripping from CDs that they own than you think. But if it turns out that you are right, I will certainly acknowledge your results.

I will take your word for it that recording on cassette from the radio is legal, given your source. I doubt the law takes the difference between analog and digital recordings into account, however, so capturing a digital recording from an audio stream is probably also legal. I seriously doubt this is where most of the "piracy" is coming from.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I believe that CDs today are cheaper in real terms than they were 15 or 20 years ago, Jon.

The costs to produce CDs since the beginning have come WAY DOWN. yet the prices do not reflect this. All that happened is the price went up. The RIAA would get more sales if they lowered the price. I remember when CDs used to be $8.99-$9.99 on sale and $11.99-$12.99 regular. Now, $12.99-$14.99 is on sale.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by nekokami

so capturing a digital recording from an audio stream is probably also legal. I seriously doubt this is where most of the "piracy" is coming from.

I doubt this, too. And regarding recording from a stream: Here in Germany it is definitely legal to capture the analog output of a digital music file and record it, provided the digital file was legally acquired. This way you can also make legal copies from copy protected sources. But who would put so much effort into this when doing it illegally is so much easier.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The costs to produce CDs since the beginning have come WAY DOWN. yet the prices do not reflect this. All that happened is the price went up. The RIAA would get more sales if they lowered the price. I remember when CDs used to be $8.99-$9.99 on sale and $11.99-$12.99 regular. Now, $12.99-$14.99 is on sale.

But the costs for producing the actual CD is the smaller if not the smallest part of all costs. Artist, manager, producer, publisher, advertiser ... they all want a piece of the cake. And because of inflation, prices are easily 40-50 % higher than they were 10 or 15 years ago. Taking this into account, the inflation adjusted price of a CD will hardly be much higher than some 15 years ago. At least I doubt this very much.

Alan

[Liviu_5]

Originally Posted by Alan

But the costs for producing the actual CD is the smaller if not the smallest part of all costs. Artist, manager, producer, publisher, advertiser ... they all want a piece of the cake. And because of inflation, prices are easily 40-50 % higher than they were 10 or 15 years ago. Taking this into account, the inflation adjusted price of a CD will hardly be much higher than some 15 years ago. At least I doubt this very much.

Alan

The problem with this argument is that prices are determined by demand and offer not by production costs. This is a very important reason for the failure or low market share of many products otherwise arguably superior or at least useful in a different way than the market dominant products (think Betamax, Apple computers, video phones, e-books)

Right now for various reasons the market price of music is coming down big time, so it's irrelevant to talk about those costs. Either music producers will survive at those lower prices (for example doing more concerts) or they will go out of business.

Incidentally, the market price of books is NOT (at least yet) coming down.

[JSWolf]

If Iw as to sell someone an eBook that I had purchased in MS Reader format, could I say have say Fictionwise transfer that eBook from my account to the other person's account? Barring that, wat would be illegal to sell the eBook DRMless since I cannot transfer the eBook with DRM since it won't work ont he other person's system. If the person is not local, I cannot then go to his/her computer, login abnd re download it. But, if I used Mobipocket, I could change the PID, download it and then send it aong to the person who bought it from me.

I know DRM should prevent reselling an eBook but we should be but what I did purchase is a physical piece of propery the same as if I had purchased the pBook. I consider the file to be a piece of property the same as the pBook. So in that case, I should have the right to sell it to someone else.

Now, lets say the person has a Sony Reader and I have a conversion done of this eBook. If I sell the original file DRM as it is and the diff file and then give the Obelisk Pyhton program to convert the diff into the LRF, is that legal?

All this of course assumes that once I make the sale the person has the file(s) and acknowledges that everything is as it should be and I then delete all the copies. Would there be any problem with any of this?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by sianon

not true, mobipocket files can be read on a wide variety of devices.

But Mobipocket with DRm cannot be read on every device.

Also, lets say there's an eBook you want and the only copy uoi can find is at the Sony eBook store, the DRM is going to prevent you from buying it and trying to convert it to some other format that your Gen3 can read. The DRM is going to prevent this. And it will prevent this big time.

The good news is that we have programs to strip the DRM from most formats now. eReader, Mobipocket, & MS Reader have all been broken. So yes, you can purchase any one of those formats and easily (will most of the time it would be easy) convert to a different format.

As an example, a lot of people who used to purchase mS Reader format for reading on the computer but have since purchased some other device such as a 505, Kindle, Gen3, etc and can not read MS Reader format on their new portable device can now remove the DRM and easily convert to some other format be it LRF, PRC, PDB, etc.

But if you are not technically savvy enough or don't know you can of how to remove the DRM and then convert, DRM is going to someday bite your ass on content that you want to reread after you've moved on from that format that you used to use.

DRM may be transparent to start with, but someday it will jump up and say I'm here! and you'll be well and truly screwed,.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by tompe

But a bestseller is a very good book for a publisher since it generates money that can be used to take risks with other books. And any method will miss some authors but so what? That does not mean that all or any other method is better.

But, do bestseller lsts like those published in the New York Times and USA Today take into account eBook sales? What I want to know is how many books would maybe not be in the toip 20 if eBooks were counted? What would the real positions be of the top 10 books. And the ones that don't have any eBook edition would have less sales from peoiple who now are only purchasing ebooks.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Exactly.

What's good for the publisher is not necessarily good reading.

A lot of what Oprah recommends, I would not even dare to use to wipe myself with. But because she's recommended it, it sells. Too many zombies out there who follow her every word instead of thinking for themselves. That's why not all the bestsellers are all that good. Just because a lot of sheep err people purchase a book does not make it good. In fact, recently a new trend has arisen. If a star is seen photographed with a book, that book will sell. This has nothing to do with the book being any good or not, it has to do with the sheep factor.

And because we get such triipe being a bestseller, the publisher looks for more siliar type of books to publish and we get even more tripe. It's a viscious cycle. Some of the best books I have read have never made it near a bestseller list. Yet, I would put them up against a lot of bestsellers in terms of quality.

It is a lot harder to write a good science fiction or fantasy novel then it is to write about some trashy love story or about some housewife starting a new life. I would love to see some reviewer say "Yes, Oprah recommended this book, but do yourself a favor an don't waste your time reading it." I think a lot of reviewers are afraid to give a bad review when the book so desperately needs one.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Alan

If you lend it, you won't have it anymore until you get it back. It's the same with DRM protected ebooks. Where is the problem?

Alan

Let's use Mobipocket as a format. I purchase a book from BooksOnBoard. I then want to let a friend read it. So I get the PID, go to BooksOnBoard, put int he PID, download the eBook again, and I have a copy both of us can read. I then send him a copy of the eBook. Now, are most people really going to delete all copies? No. If a conversion has been made to be able to read that eBook in another format, is the person lending the eBook going to delete the conversion only to maybe have t do it all over again? No. So it's not the same. The eBook lent out won't be deleted after it's read. The person loaning the eBook won't delete it till it's been read and deleted. It doesn't work that way. When an eBook is loaned, it's not a loan/ It's a giving of a copy that won't be deleted by either person. It's basically giving the person the eBook. It's like buying a CD and your friend wants to listen to it, but you don't want to givr out your CD. So you make a copy and give the copy toy our friend. Besides, if you did loan your CD, your friend could just as easily make a copy and give you back your CD. Loaning an eBook in the true sense of the word LOAN doesn't work.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by junkml

Until Amazon gives up on the format, like they did with the Microsoft Reader ebooks. I bought quite a few from Amazon, and can no longer access them. so, if anything happens to the backup copies I'm SOL. This isn't specifically about DRM, but is the problem with all the competing formats, each with their different DRM. If there was a standard, you might not see companies deciding to completely drop support. This is also one reason you will never find my buying an ebook device put out by Amazon.

I keep pointing out that Amazon has screwed people over with eBook in the past. Nobody seems to LISTEN. Mainly it's Abobe PDF eBooks that are the biggest issue. People upgrade their computer or install a new version of the OS and they need to download the eBook in order to read it but cannot because Amazon decided to only allow downloads for a year and didn't tell anyone up front. So why are people TRUSTING Amzon again with eBooks when Amazon has never made amends in the first place with all the people they've screwed over?