Dilemma

[Liviu_5]

Originally Posted by jasonkchapman

Either the industry moves forward or it doesn't. Typesetting and pre-press are already digital, too. Granted it's not the end product, but it still starts out there.

One of the marvelous things about e-books is that they open up avenues to writers whose work, for one reason or another, just doesn't fit the publishing industry's cherished formula for acquisition. In paper, the alternative is small presses, but the small press business is almost impossible to do profitably. The costs are overwhelming. That leaves e-publishing, which promises to give a great big megaphone to voices that are usually drowned out by the mega-media-marketing campaigns of major houses.

Personally I see e-books as an alternative form of publishing, not a replacement, at least not in the foreseeable future (a good exercise in imagination is to think yourself in 1800 or 1900 to see how pointless - though it can be fun or not depending if you are in the gloom and doom camp or in the singularity/end of scarcity comes and we'll live for a long while one - is to predict the future over more than a generation or two).

For some people it will be a way to sell more p-books, for some it will be the only form for a reason or another. Today the publishing industry is doing quite well despite perception to the contrary (maybe the literary fiction genre is not and is kept for prestige, but popular genres do quite well) and there is a lot of upside.

Kids and people more generally not reading so much - well for once it's not clear when they read that much at least here in America, for another get interesting books for them out and as we all know, they sell very well.

Sure the news industry is restructuring, many magazines are in decline, but those were always ephemeral things and the Net as the current top ephemeral thing is wiping the floor with them, but so what.

Despite the opinions of some, books are not and have not been ephemeral and they are here to stay, both e and print, in fixed form by and large and not in some constantly changing "cloud in the sky"

[andyafro]

I say get them from darknet if the publisher has not made them in ebook format yet. It's the company's fault for not keeping up with the pace. Either purchase the dead tree format from the shops or once they are there in ebook format purchase them then but untill then go for the darknet. We are consumers if the company's cannot provide us with what we want we will find it elsewhere till they do. It's really there fault for not making them available and any money lost because it's not there yet is really down to them.

I would find it on darknet if i couldnt find it anywhere else, it's your choice really, it's not wrong to download, it's wrong to then share or upload it again once you have it.

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by jasonkchapman

The problem with this is that it only works right now, while e-books are a tiny part of the market and p-books dominate. What happens in the future, when e-books dominate? What happens currently when the author's books are only available as e-books and there are no p-books?

I think that's one of the reasons that there is so much rancor around the subject. There are "right now" solutions bumping up against "industry future" needs and the other way around. If everyone agreed with and followed your example, it would guarantee p-book dominance for a long time to come, and would likely lead to publishers moving toward more complex paper protection schemes like the "magic dots" used for currency. It would doom e-books to little more than a promotional scheme for p-books.

I agree. Folks wonder why publishers are so reticent to publish in electronic form since it so obviously seems to be the way of the future to us. Customers want it, but it seems to me that until they find a way that they think they can preserve their power base as gatekeepers, or trade it for something equally lucrative, they're going to resist. Electronic publishing puts more power in the hands of the authors. Publishers bring a lot to the table with their editing and marketing services but traditionally they've also held massive power with all but star authors because they controlled access to the expensive processes of printing and distribution. They are still highly relevant in electronic publishing but possibly not as powerful as the current players want.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by alexxxm

I'm a bit disappointed to see that this poll is clearly missing a possible answer, an answer that I would choose at once ...

"Download the ebook from darknet" and that's all.

I was actually very pleased that this option isn't included. I thought it indicated a nice maturity around the topic. But I suppose for completeness' sake it should be.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by nekokami

I was actually very pleased that this option isn't included. I thought it indicated a nice maturity around the topic. But I suppose for completeness' sake it should be.

OK, darknet option added.

But what I want to know is how easy/hard is it to take the electronic form of the book used to print and convert it to an ebook that we can read?

[6charlong]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

OK, darknet option added.

But what I want to know is how easy/hard is it to take the electronic form of the book used to print and convert it to an ebook that we can read?

This issue is central to the problems facing the big publishing houses. They are part of the capitalist economy (I’ll call it that regardless whether it’s publicly or privately owned) in that they control vast resources dedicated to publishing. The big publishers have always been confronted by small publishers—let’s call them the free enterprise sector of the economy—traditionally the economy where few resources are needed to start a business so anyone can venture in. The so-called darknet belongs in what’s being called the “wiki” sector, which is a new thing (or an old thing in new clothes, but that’s a digression).

Of course, the Internet creates a new economic reality for them all. It levels the playing field for free enterprisers because it enables small publishers and even individual authors to reach a wider audience without needing a lot of land, labor and capital to start. The Internet also provides the reality in which the wiki economy exists.

It’s widely accepted that technologies are generally additive: a new technology supplements the old one and seldom (if ever) replaces it entirely. eBooks are a key part of this new economic reality for publishers. They offer so many advantages that they can not be buried. So how can an oligopoly that has previously controlled the dissemination of ideas continue in that role? It’s likely that they can no longer control it all, as many posting to this thread have pointed out. The logical strategy for big publishers is: if you can’t beat them, join them. I think that’s also been pointed out.

There are many ways big publishers can use eBooks to increase sales: I don’t think that many, at least in open societies, ever relished controlling ideas.

The big publisher’s problem is change. A sea-change like this means short-term losses to those working in the industry in order to preserve the long-term interests of the industry. It’s hard to get people to think up innovative ways to eliminate their own job, especially when they love their work!

Just my 2-cents.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

I find it quite curious and depressing that people can so easily justify behaviours that I think should somehow just be clearly wrong to them. Surely if people thought clearly about it they could see it so.

I thinks it is a slippery slope and a psychological think. I have watched myself and friends going from "its is wrong, you do not do it" to downloading TV series without problem. And it usually starts by you getting copies from friends and and then just test for fun to download and first you just download things that are not available and you cannot buy and so on. Since I have seen many people do that I think it is just how humans work. I would be more than happy to pay for downloading TV series if the price was reasonable and it was as convenient as it is now downloading things illegally but it is still not possible.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by tompe

I thinks it is a slippery slope and a psychological think. I have watched myself and friends going from "its is wrong, you do not do it" to downloading TV series without problem. And it usually starts by you getting copies from friends and and then just test for fun to download and first you just download things that are not available and you cannot buy and so on. Since I have seen many people do that I think it is just how humans work. I would be more than happy to pay for downloading TV series if the price was reasonable and it was as convenient as it is now downloading things illegally but it is still not possible.

Actually in the USA it is possible on practically any new series by the networks. Most shows can be watched for free on the network website or downloaded for $2 from iTunes.

Dale

[tompe]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Actually in the USA it is possible on practically any new series by the networks. Most shows can be watched for free on the network website or downloaded for $2 from iTunes.

Good to hear. Maybe I should check if it works from other countries and using Linux.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But what I want to know is how easy/hard is it to take the electronic form of the book used to print and convert it to an ebook that we can read?

Someone in another thread said that publishers usually don't keep the digital versions after the paper printing is set up. If that's the case, it could be quite a pain to get good e versions done for many publishers. (It would be embarrassing if they have to go to the darknet for scans of their backlists!)

[andyafro]

This is what i mean
Today i found a great book (the book with no name by anonymous) and now that i have seen it, it will bother me till i have read it (i'm like a child at christmas with books sometimes) but it is not available in electronic format (it is on amazon so u might get it on a kindle) just dead tree paperback and now i want it, so i have no choice but to buy it in paperback but now i gotta lug that around with my reader (it comes everywhere) Whats the point? Now if it appeared on the darknet right now i would download it without even thinking bout it and for no other reason other then i have a reader and im feel it should not only be available to be in my format but in this day and age, this digital one i should be able to have it now right now, not in 4 days, i don't want to wait anymore, if i wanted to wait i wouldn't of bought a reader, thats the point, you see something, you want it, you pay for it, it's your in 2 minutes.

But now i gotta wait 4 days and thats not fair, now i have a reader, when i do have to buy a paperback it feels like going back to a 56k modem when you got broadband.

funny thing is they have the first 2 chapters to read digitally online.

If anyone does find this book anywhere in electronic format please let me know.

It's called
The Book With No Name by Anonymous (Looks Fantastic)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Book-No-Name/dp/1847280463

first 2 chapters are here http://www.thebookwithnoname.com/

[Amalthia]

So far I've found it much easier to find my favorite tv series via torrents than itunes, for example The Invisible Man is not listed at I-tunes at all but I can find it via torrents. (it's not exactly easy to find in stores either) I won't even go into the absurd prices they are charging for Star Trek the Next Generation dvds.

but yeah downloading via Torrents is a slippery slope. Me I love my favorite TV shows and do my best to support them by buying the DVDs when they are released. (as long as it's not priced at 80 dollars, really I think 20-40 is reasonable for one season)

As for ebooks it's driving me nuts that I can't find some authors on darknet or ebook publishers at all! I'm so tempted to buy my own OCR scanner and scan my own book collection in because I can't find books I own on paper anywhere on the net. And I can't find some books via darknet that are at ebook publisher's sites but cost way too much. No one should have to pay 30 bucks for an ebook, that's just crazy. Especially for a book that is already in paperback.

Um anyways, I'm all for downloading via darknet if you can't find the book at any ebook stores. It's not your fault they aren't selling legal ebook copies.

[Kajti]

Originally Posted by HappyMartin

I had never heard of torrents or the darknet

BitTorrent is only one type of P2P app. For books, others like eMule or Direct Connect are probably better, with IRC techier but better still, and newsgroups easier. Websites aren't involved much.

I longer read p books at all.

Me, too. Newspapers and magazines, yes, but I'm strictly ebook in reading these days. I specifically bought an expensive reading device so that would be the last I'd have to pay for books, given how easily they can be downloaded from various places. Doesn't matter if they're for sale: they're available. (Just like TV shows. It's not like someone in the US could get the Canadian spy/crime series Intelligence or the New Zealand series Orange Roughies legitimately anywhere.)

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by nekokami

Someone in another thread said that publishers usually don't keep the digital versions after the paper printing is set up. If that's the case, it could be quite a pain to get good e versions done for many publishers. (It would be embarrassing if they have to go to the darknet for scans of their backlists!)

But why not keep digitial versions to be used a ebooks? Why have to then take a paper copy and have to scan/ORC it? It would seem to me to be a lot easier to take the ready-to-go digital copy and format shift it. Heck, I'd love to get a job preparing ebooks from digital content.

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But why not keep digitial versions to be used a ebooks? Why have to then take a paper copy and have to scan/ORC it? It would seem to me to be a lot easier to take the ready-to-go digital copy and format shift it. Heck, I'd love to get a job preparing ebooks from digital content.

...for reasons many have posted here, most of them related to the nature of being middlemen: control.

By destroying the resource that would facilitate their own (delusional, self-perceived) "demise" they can say that the cost of getting into the ebiz is high, etc.

I mean, is there really any technological reason to use a word processor to write a book, then print it out doublespaced in a monospaced font and submit two copies to a publisher in this day and age? I mean *really*?

In a fantasy world where the publishing model for books de facto was digital the costs associated with doing so would be so low compared to paper that the publishers would lose some leverage in negotiating their percentage of their 'cut' so the incentive there "long term" is practically nil. Flow control and market shaping save the day...again

It's a highly competitive world out there for writers, and once you make it mainstream, you kind of figure out too that it is not to your advantage to change this system. The barriers to entry serve to keep guys like the writers that frequent here out of the way.

It's kind of mechakucha if you ask me. While I am NOT a fan of trade unionism, I do admire the SAG here in the USA for their Actor's Strike a few years back in the USA. Practically every "big name" actor involved at the time pretty much had the same reasoning: they didn't need it, but there are scores of actors out there that would never make it "big" that did. They remembered what it was like "in the trenches" as it were, and realized that it could easily have been them still there.

If there was that kind of thing going on amongst writes in a top-down sort of way, things would be different. Imagine if like 2-5 "big name, big money" authors started their own ePublishing house. A lot of writers would be able to do what they love to do and make a decent living out of it, a LOT more diverse books would be seen and overall, it would be better.

There is enough capital floating around that a "writer's publisher" could get even get a ubiquitous reader device out there. To do that would require a "good enough" device at the iPod price point, with the "value-add" of either shipping with these Big Name Author's books in place or a scheme to download the eBook if you have the pBook. The secret to the iPod's sucess isn't just clever marketing...its that it is cheap and adds value to the music library you already own.

What's a "good enough" device, you may ask. Well, let's look to the market leaders for some ideas...Nintendo and Apple.

It needs to be priced below the competitors, small, and easy to use. It would have *less features* than competing products but a lower price.

So, I'd say a device priced in the iPod Nano range ($200) with an eInk screen...but to get it in that range, make it *slightly smaller* than the current models...say 3/4ths the size in both dimensions.

You want the minimal amount of of buttons, but enough to use an onscreen keyboard for "quick notes" but not a full chicklet keyboard.

OTA anywhere buying...maybe. I don't know that too many people with iPods and iPhones that can do this actually bother. iTunes is well understood, tho the Whispernet is attractive, its not a real killer app at $400 price of entry.

Then, innovate in the service too by allowing (gasp) buyers of ebooks to print one copy of it should they choose to do so.

Further innovation would be in the revenue sharing model: do what CD-Baby does.

Do these things, and I'm pretty sure eBooks will take off...but its going to take some support from folks already in the pBook industry and some innovative *thinking* to go with it.

But you know, some people forget where they come from, and who it is they are supposed to be serving and selling to, so we have this mess instead.

Too bad.