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Old 05-23-2013, 09:14 AM   #31
Hamlet53
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'What did it matter where you lay once you were dead? In a dirty sump or in a marble tower on top of a high hill? You were dead, you were sleeping the big sleep, you were not bothered by things like that. Oil and water were the same as wind and air to you. You just slept the big sleep, not caring about the nastiness of how you died or where you fell. Me, I was part of the nastiness now']

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So in the end I believe that what makes the book live is its atmosphere of nihilistic darkness.

"What did it matter where you lay once you were dead? In a dirty sump or in a marble tower on tip of a high hill? You were dead, you were sleeping the big sleep, you were not bothered by things like that. Oil and water were the same as wind and air to you. You just slept the big sleep, not caring about the nastiness of how you died or where you fell. Me, I was part of the nastiness now. Far more a part of it than Rusty Regan was. But the old man didn't have to be. He could lie quiet in his canopied bed,. . . His thoughts were as gray as ashes. And in a little while he too, like Rusty Regan, would be sleeping the big sleep."

I was going to give this one a pass. However, after reading the above I just have to at least give a book with an ending like the above a chance. I hope it is worth the effort, but some whose opinions I generally respect liked it.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:05 PM   #32
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I didn't like the book at first, but it is one of the books that gets better with a close reading and a reflecting, I found.
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Old 05-23-2013, 06:17 PM   #33
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"Today we're trained to be goody two-shoes, covering our eyes and ears from those things we're taught to disbelieve in. But the world keeps rubbing them in our faces. Evil is always there; you can't get rid of it. You just shift it around, and then are horrified when you trip over it. And you try to destroy anyone who take those hands covering your senses, even if they're only trying to remind that reality is there; not knowing that in the end you're just creating more evil by denying it..."

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Old 05-24-2013, 05:21 AM   #34
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Is there some special meaning that connects this passage to the rest of the story? Some symbolism in Marlow's dream that relates to the the other crimes? If so, I'm missing it.

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I went to bed full of whiskey and frustration and dreamed about a man in a bloody Chinese coat who chased a naked girl with long jade earrings while I ran after them and tried to take a photograph with an empty camera.

I don't think it needs to mean anything. He probably just threw it out there, thought it sounded alright, and left it in. Chandler wasn't interested in writing detectives and plot-driven novels as he was in writing quality literature. The plotting of the Big Sleep is less than clock-work. He just throws stuff in. sometimes it meanders all over the place. He doesn't care. I guess as long as he had the end worked out, it all worked out. He was probably drunk a lot of the time.

Chandler is a superlative novelist who happened to use the vehicle of detective stories. He saw the world as a dark place and created a character to rub against it.

I suspect the strength of his evocation of California in the forties is aided by his upbringing in England. He went from rainy shores to sun-soaked. It amuses me that he spells towards with an 's.'

The Long Goodbye is the novel of his I like the most. It is his opus.

I think Chandler is the true inheritor of Scott Fitzgerald's crown. They both write about class, spectral nights and the heights and the depths of the human soul.
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Old 05-24-2013, 05:28 AM   #35
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Bogart was and still is Philip Marlowe.
I absolutely disagree, and I will endevour never to watch the movie. Though I do appreciate Bogart gave a memorable performance.
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Old 05-24-2013, 05:34 AM   #36
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I think you missed Chandler's point, it wasn't the occasional unexpected appearence of evil behind the mask of society, but that society was evil at it's core, and that it was able to hide that fact so much of the time...
I agree and I think this goes along with my comparison of Chandler with The Great Gatsby. They both analyze decadence and wealth. Truly books for our time. They both also have a remarkable gift for description.

Someone mentioned Chandler's characters as 2-D. I don't know that I'd agree with that. I can still remember that psychopath dressed as a cowboy. The description was chilling, and I can't say why. I think it was in the Big Sleep. And the wicked, drunken, rich girl at the end who is so casual about others and life. She's a Buchanan alright.
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Old 05-24-2013, 05:45 AM   #37
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...It amuses me that he spells towards with an 's.'...
In my neck of the woods, that's the way people talk. I've always wondered about the proper usage of that. My Granddaddy Sharpe, who had a third grade education, had a very unique way of speaking. He would speak of this here here and that there there and always pronounce the "Elm" in "Elm Avenue" with two syllables. Could you picture Bogart as Marlow speaking like that?
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Old 05-24-2013, 07:27 AM   #38
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The Long Goodbye is the novel of his I like the most. It is his opus.
He wrote that one as a means of dealing with his wife's last illness I believe. Sissy was dying (the ultimate long goodbye) and he (as I understand it) wrote it for her first and foremost.
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Old 05-24-2013, 08:32 AM   #39
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In my neck of the woods, that's the way people talk. I've always wondered about the proper usage of that. My Granddaddy Sharpe, who had a third grade education, had a very unique way of speaking. He would speak of this here here and that there there and always pronounce the "Elm" in "Elm Avenue" with two syllables. Could you picture Bogart as Marlow speaking like that?
I think Americans pronounce the 's' but they don't spell with it, unlike the British.

If you mean El-um, like Fil-um (for film), that would be Irish, or possibly Geordie.

No way did Marlowe speak like that, lol.
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Old 05-24-2013, 08:34 AM   #40
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He wrote that one as a means of dealing with his wife's last illness I believe. Sissy was dying (the ultimate long goodbye) and he (as I understand it) wrote it for her first and foremost.
There's a crazy chapter in the middle where a drunken binge turns into something resembling an acid trip. You don't read that in conventional detective tales.

On another note, I've read that Chandler's plotting was not the tightest. I'd agree with that. I think he said that when he didn't know what happened next, he'd send in a guy with a gun.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:06 AM   #41
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...El-um....
In his case, more like El-em. Irish influence? Perhaps.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:08 AM   #42
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...I think he said that when he didn't know what happened next, he'd send in a guy with a gun.
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Old 05-24-2013, 03:42 PM   #43
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In his case, more like El-em. Irish influence? Perhaps.
That bi-syllabic prononciation is still quite common {but not universal} is certain parts of the west of Ireland. I hear it quite frequently.
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Old 05-25-2013, 04:56 PM   #44
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In his case, more like El-em. Irish influence? Perhaps.
American English is a derivative of Irish English.
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:55 AM   #45
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I did not participate in this discussion when it was going on but I LOVED this book when I read it. Of course I have seen the movie first (which I also loved) and thought the book was great. I always thought of Bogart and Bacall when reading and thought they exemplified the characters well. I just love the name Eddie Mars.

I have not read much more from Chandler but this one was awesome.
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