Smashwords Succumbs to Censorship

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Connallmac

Good, maybe then I will consider re-opening my PayPal account.

They've backed down entirely:

we are going to focus this policy only on e-books that contain potentially illegal images, not e-books that are limited to just text. The policy will prohibit use of PayPal for the sale of e-books that contain child pornography, or e-books with text and obscene images of rape, bestiality or incest (as defined by the U.S. legal standard for obscenity:...

[anamardoll]

I'm glad, but I didn't like the Smashwords mailer that went out about the new policy being THE MOST LIBERAL POLICY OF ALL CREDIT COMPANIES EVER. By, ah, what criteria are you making that claim, Mark Coker? Eh, whatever. I'm glad it's over.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

They have used that kind of pressure, and it's well within their rights to do so -- regardless of whether you or I believe the use of that particular tactic in that particular instance is effective.



It's not a matter of equating PayPal's or Smashwords' actions with "ending apartheid."

It's that economic boycotts are a perfectly valid tool to achieve a political end.

They are not a valid tool when the aim of the boycott is to restrict the freedom of OTHERS. A boycott of advertisers by pressure groups to restrict access to legal materials is the same as a boycott of a restaurant that welcomes black people as customers. The boycott itself may be legal in both cases, no argument there. But it is a shame when a company like PayPal caves to such pressure. Such an action by PayPal reflects very badly on society. Well, in the end, more people stood up and defended freedom. Sad enough it did even get this far.

[ScalyFreak]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Yes, that Smashwords PayPal update for March 12 sounds promising.

This is indeed promising. I normally get only free books from Smashwords, but I have spent money there them in the past, and was not looking forward to having to get Smashwords books I want through the Sony store from here on.

[Prestidigitweeze]

I'm glad the issue seems to be sorted, but that doesn't mean I'll be using PayPal in the future. If they tried the strategy this time and were set straight, then we know what they intend to do to book sellers ultimately. I'd rather not support their agenda no matter how long it takes for it to become apparent again.

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Getting and political. Let's stick to the issues between PayPal and Smashwords.

And that's why my response dealt purely with examples of customer boycotts and not the politics behind them (including Limbaugh's). We all get sidetracked occasionally, but ideally, people shouldn't allow an opponent's use of a charged name to distract them from the focus and tone of a discussion.

Thank you. Anyone can go there and talk politics until they're blue in the face.

And even if we don't go there, we can also address someone's basic argument (if it's on-topic) no matter how many distracting names get dropped.

[tjr]

The interesting thing about Paypal, Amazon, Smash etc and every other e-publisher Iv'e heard of is that what they call titillation via the written word is apparently acceptable as long as their TOS is not violated, but images or pix of the same scenes being described are prohibited. That would prohibit the Kama Sutra. And since the net is a visual medium that doesn't make much sense. I think that's a market some smart publisher will sooner or later exploit.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by tjr

The interesting thing about Paypal, Amazon, Smash etc and every other e-publisher Iv'e heard of is that what they call titillation via the written word is apparently acceptable as long as their TOS is not violated, but images or pix of the same scenes being described are prohibited. That would prohibit the Kama Sutra. And since the net is a visual medium that doesn't make much sense. I think that's a market some smart publisher will sooner or later exploit.

There are a lot of people selling titillation, exploitation etc. And making money I am sure. Has been big business for at least 1000 years.

Not my idea of passing a pleasant afternoon, but I have plebian values.

I don't think erotica should be sold on mainstream sites where it can be accessed by children. I would not knowingly give a gift card to anyone for a site with (IMO) iffy content. They might pass it on to someone else.



Helen

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I don't think erotica should be sold on mainstream sites where it can be accessed by children. I would not knowingly give a gift card to anyone for a site with (IMO) iffy content. They might pass it on to someone else.

What do you mean, "accessed by?" Children can't legally buy from Amazon; they can't agree to be bound by the TOS, and they can't have credit cards.

Also, there is no legal age limit on erotica texts (nor any other kind of text) in the US. You are welcome to decide what's appropriate for your children to read; you are not welcome to decide what my children should have access to.

I'd prefer if my kids weren't exposed to books with overtly Christian themes until they're 18--think I can get local bookstores to agree to keep those books behind the counter? After all, a parent has the right to direct a child's religious education--doesn't that mean nobody should provide religious materials to a child against the parent's wishes? (Certainly they often think so when it's Pagans providing literature to children from Christian families.)

I am, however, unconcerned about my children reading about sex. I'd much prefer they read about it than experimented blindly. Even reading bad depictions of sex (lurid purple prose with anatomically impossible positions) is less worrisome to me than reading graphic depictions of violence--which we've established can give them nightmares. Yet nobody seems to be willing to remove trauma-inducing books from my children's view.

Of course, there's a collection of erotica available for free at Project Gutenberg. Do you steer people away from that site so that kids don't discover it?

[krischik]

or any other form of non-consensual violence against another person

Would that not mean most thrillers and crime stories are off limit as well?

[Fbone]

[QUOTE=Elfwreck;2008540]What do you mean, "accessed by?" Children can't legally buy from Amazon; they can't agree to be bound by the TOS, and they can't have credit cards.

[/QUOTE

I believe [apologies if I am wrong] speakingtohe was referring to erotica focused on rape, incest and bestiality. Many of these titles are or have been free on Amazon or, if not, a sample can be viewed. For example this book or similar was free (I chose a mild one) http://www.amazon.com/Daddy-Daughter...2073228&sr=1-2

and may frighten a young girl and instruct a young boy. They may not understand the idea and concept of adult's fantasizing about such behavior.

Yes, violent books are prevalent. But many of those show the bad people being sought after and caught by the police. And then jailed by the justice system. They are good vs evil stories. An exception may be horror genre where the bad people are supernatural?
With certain types of erotica as mentioned above it is the reward or goal of the title's characters. It is not always viewed as wrong. This may confuse a young child. It is natural, that a parent may wish to determine age appropriate material and not let a corporation do so.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Fbone

With certain types of erotica as mentioned above it is the reward or goal of the title's characters. It is not always viewed as wrong. This may confuse a young child. It is natural, that a parent may wish to determine age appropriate material and not let a corporation do so.

Exactly my point... *I* want to determine what my kids are allowed to read. *I* will figure out how to restrict their access accordingly; I don't want corporations or other parents (or worse, non-parents) deciding that huge categories of content need to be removed from public view to protect my children.

If they want to protect their children from such content--which is, as you say, often a reasonable goal--they need to manage their kids' browsing habits.

My kids, both teenagers, have zero interest in books like the one you mentioned. If they *did* have an interest, it'd be my responsibility as a parent to know that, and explain what's problematic about such stories--not tell them "pretend that doesn't exist until you turn 18, at which point you can read anything you like." The idea that the 18th birthday bestows upon a child both a sex drive and the awareness of how to use it without hurting themselves or others, is ridiculous.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

What do you mean, "accessed by?" Children can't legally buy from Amazon; they can't agree to be bound by the TOS, and they can't have credit cards.

Also, there is no legal age limit on erotica texts (nor any other kind of text) in the US. You are welcome to decide what's appropriate for your children to read; you are not welcome to decide what my children should have access to.

I'd prefer if my kids weren't exposed to books with overtly Christian themes until they're 18--think I can get local bookstores to agree to keep those books behind the counter? After all, a parent has the right to direct a child's religious education--doesn't that mean nobody should provide religious materials to a child against the parent's wishes? (Certainly they often think so when it's Pagans providing literature to children from Christian families.)

I am, however, unconcerned about my children reading about sex. I'd much prefer they read about it than experimented blindly. Even reading bad depictions of sex (lurid purple prose with anatomically impossible positions) is less worrisome to me than reading graphic depictions of violence--which we've established can give them nightmares. Yet nobody seems to be willing to remove trauma-inducing books from my children's view.

Of course, there's a collection of erotica available for free at Project Gutenberg. Do you steer people away from that site so that kids don't discover it?

I don't steer anyone towards or away from any ebook sites but the local library unless they are looking for a particular book.

I am not pro censorship and not against erotica. I don't like to see books that are depicting exploitation as a good thing and this is not limited to erotica.
Frankly I would prefer that they did not exist, but I am not going to boycott sellers or discriminate against people that read them, because of this.

I also don't think that the vast majority of children/teens are going to be damaged by reading about sex or violence, or even religion if that is their desire.

I admire your interest in your children's reading/activities. Not easy to be a concerned parent.

And while minors may not be able to open an Amazon account they do indeed get gift cards for ebooks. Most have to go through an adult to use them, but many will figure out a way to use them as they wish.

I must agree with you for the most part. There are far worse things than even the most exploitative ebooks. I still would not give a minor a gift card to a site carrying them but I don't think that makes me an extremist.

Helen

PS: BTW children can have credit cards in some circumstances and AFAIK can buy vanilla type credit cards or receive them as gifts. Perhaps there are laws restricting them from using them but online who is to know?

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Exactly my point... *I* want to determine what my kids are allowed to read. *I* will figure out how to restrict their access accordingly; I don't want corporations or other parents (or worse, non-parents) deciding that huge categories of content need to be removed from public view to protect my children.

If they want to protect their children from such content--which is, as you say, often a reasonable goal--they need to manage their kids' browsing habits.

My kids, both teenagers, have zero interest in books like the one you mentioned. If they *did* have an interest, it'd be my responsibility as a parent to know that, and explain what's problematic about such stories--not tell them "pretend that doesn't exist until you turn 18, at which point you can read anything you like." The idea that the 18th birthday bestows upon a child both a sex drive and the awareness of how to use it without hurting themselves or others, is ridiculous.

I agree with you but also believe there can be a way for some companies to restrict certain material from children but allow full access to adults. Perhaps, require a unique password or credit card number for free erotica and sampling. Some extra step in there somewhere. At the moment it is too easy. Also, kids today may have multiple internet portals away from adults (i.e. the public library, smartphones,tablets) and supervision.

While I understand the more extreme erotica is legal and not age restricted it is not all age appropriate. Having to explain to an 8 year old "Why does Daddy want to have sex with ... ?" would be awkward and difficult. The psychology involved is challenging for any adult to explain. It would most likely make the child uncomfortable to be with other male family members.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Exactly my point... *I* want to determine what my kids are allowed to read. *I* will figure out how to restrict their access accordingly; I don't want corporations or other parents (or worse, non-parents) deciding that huge categories of content need to be removed from public view to protect my children.

If they want to protect their children from such content--which is, as you say, often a reasonable goal--they need to manage their kids' browsing habits.

My kids, both teenagers, have zero interest in books like the one you mentioned. If they *did* have an interest, it'd be my responsibility as a parent to know that, and explain what's problematic about such stories--not tell them "pretend that doesn't exist until you turn 18, at which point you can read anything you like." The idea that the 18th birthday bestows upon a child both a sex drive and the awareness of how to use it without hurting themselves or others, is ridiculous.

This, THANK YOU.

I do not have children. I'm sick and tired of people trying to whitewash the internet because somewhere a child is using a computer without parental supervision. Look after your own children and stop trying to impose child safety locks on the things that I use, please. Kthxbye.

[cHex]

I do have children. And I'm computer literate. Knowing better than to put my trust in Internet filters, website self-restraint, and the like, I accepted my full parental share of responsibility for what my children would consume on the web. A sanitized version of the Internet is just not possible, and any parent who thinks they've found it is deluded.

(My parental philosophy: provide free unfettered access to the Internet, public-area-only computer access for most of the child's life, and install monitoring software. Let the kids know what is acceptable and what isn't, and let them know you're monitoring their usage. Then use judgement--be able to distinguish between a 2-5 second "oops, that's not what I wanted" page hit and an entire viewing session of inappropriate material. And after all that, realize there are still ways for a clever, determined kid to get what they want....)