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Old Yesterday, 08:05 PM   #25471
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Originally Posted by speakingtohe View Post
Are you equating that with some nutbar cutting of an animals head and leaving the body behind to rot? Possibly just for kicks?

I eat meat, but kind of think I shouldn't. I am opposed to the way we raise and slaughter the meat we do eat and do not do anything about it. Makes me not so nice IMO.

But I think it is far removed from wanton slaughtering/cruelty/abuse such as cow tipping just for the fun of it although obviously you have a different idea.

Helen
Since an animal that is losing its life is not aware that it's being killed either wantonly or for a "legal" reason of eating it, I guess I am indeed equating these two situations. I believe it is our subjective moral point of view that artificially differentiate these two situations.
understand that I don't see a problem with someone being shocked at the barbaric endeavors by some sickos as described earlier in this thread, I have a problem with the lack of empathy to the mass killing of millions of animals when their death happen to "suit our needs as a society".
I agree with those calling the perpetrators of that animal beheading as "evil" but I don't think "evil" ends with them, I believe it pervades our society in a much deeper way than we care to admit. I believe we are collectively profoundly sick when we are BOTH so shocked by the killing of certain animals in certain situations like the one discussed here and lacking so much empathy when animals are killed on an industrial scale to please our culinary needs.

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Old Yesterday, 08:28 PM   #25472
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Originally Posted by Quexos View Post
Since an animal that is losing its life is not aware that it's being killed either wantonly or for a "legal" reason of eating it, I guess I am indeed equating these two situations. I believe it is our subjective moral point of view that artificially differentiate these two situations.
understand that I don't see a problem with someone being shocked at the barbaric endeavors by some sickos as described earlier in this thread, I have a problem with the lack of empathy to the mass killing of millions of animals when their death happen to "suit our needs as a society".
I agree with those calling the perpetrators of that animal beheading as "evil" but I don't think "evil" ends with them, I believe it pervades our society in a much deeper way than we care to admit. I believe we are collectively profoundly sick when we are BOTH so shocked by the killing of certain animals in certain situations like the one discussed here and lacking so much empathy when animals are killed on an industrial scale to please our culinary needs.
I understand your position. Unfortunately I haven't been able, so far to give up meat. And dead is dead, but keeping animals in inhumane conditions prior to death is not good either.

I think WE are more apathetic or self interested than sick to be shocked, although I am pretty sure I did not indicate in any way that I was shocked.
I am not shocked, having encountered many incidents of this nature. Where I was raised it was considered great fun to kill a calf and put it in a stream to contaminate the water supply of a neighbour you weren't fond of.

Killing for food is one thing, killing for sport another. Killing for revenge at least has a clear motivation. Killing just for fun/gratification or just because you can seems a lot worse IMO. None of us is perfect or without blame, but I cannot equate cutting of an animal's head, leaving the carcass to rot with normal human behaviour much as that is lacking in morality at times. Would you want to live in the vicinity of people who do such things.

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Old Yesterday, 08:33 PM   #25473
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I'm fortunate to be able to get meat that I know where it came from and how raised.

Helen, you do know there is no such thing as cow tipping, right?
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Old Yesterday, 08:44 PM   #25474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quexos View Post
Since an animal that is losing its life is not aware that it's being killed either wantonly or for a "legal" reason of eating it, I guess I am indeed equating these two situations. I believe it is our subjective moral point of view that artificially differentiate these two situations.
understand that I don't see a problem with someone being shocked at the barbaric endeavors by some sickos as described earlier in this thread, I have a problem with the lack of empathy to the mass killing of millions of animals when their death happen to "suit our needs as a society".
I agree with those calling the perpetrators of that animal beheading as "evil" but I don't think "evil" ends with them, I believe it pervades our society in a much deeper way than we care to admit. I believe we are collectively profoundly sick when we are BOTH so shocked by the killing of certain animals in certain situations like the one discussed here and lacking so much empathy when animals are killed on an industrial scale to please our culinary needs.
I think you are laboring under the delusion that meat eating/animals dying is inherently an evil thing.
You are more than welcome to believe wholeheartedly in this (subjective) concept, but please be aware that the world is positively filled with people who disagree.

From my perspective, the only evil thing about animal cruelty, is what it says about the person doing it.
People who do such depraved things have a sick mind, and may very well progress to more "interesting" targets, like people. Either way, they should be strictly punished.


Killing for food is a fundamental part of nature. (Ever seen, like, most of the animal kingdom?) If done strictly for that reason, it will naturally follow that unnecessary cruelty is avoided, at least by default (people often are far more careless than should be allowed, but that is not inherent in the idea of killing animals for food).



There is nothing wrong with killing animals! There IS something deeply disturbing, and wrong, in glorying in their death!
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Old Yesterday, 08:50 PM   #25475
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Originally Posted by covingtoncat73 View Post
People. F*****g. Suck. Sorry for the language but I am beyond angry. Friends of mine have a business using goats to do stuff like clear brush on a neglected park. Well, their goats had a couple of very cute babies. My friends were so proud of them and shared cute pictures. Well, some unmitigated evil a******e beheaded one of the baby goats and the other baby is missing!
This really is horrible... but sounds to me more 'religious' than food needs or sport. But as you live in the heart of Voodoo Land, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often. Goats heads have always played a major role in both Satanic and Voodoo rituals. In 2013, five headless goats were discovered in Miami and attributed to Santeria ritual usage.


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Old Yesterday, 09:00 PM   #25476
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Originally Posted by Stitchawl View Post
This really is horrible... but sounds to me more 'religious' than food needs or sport. But as you live in the heart of Voodoo Land, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often. Goats heads have always played a major role in both Satanic and Voodoo rituals. In 2013, five headless goats were discovered in Miami and attributed to Santeria ritual usage.


Stitchawl
That's absolutely horrible... I really believe the perpetrators of such heinous acts will feel the suffering of the animals in the afterlife.
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Old Yesterday, 09:01 PM   #25477
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Originally Posted by Stitchawl View Post
This really is horrible... but sounds to me more 'religious' than food needs or sport. But as you live in the heart of Voodoo Land, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often. Goats heads have always played a major role in both Satanic and Voodoo rituals. In 2013, five headless goats were discovered in Miami and attributed to Santeria ritual usage.


Stitchawl
I would say that, too, Stitch, but there is less Voodoo than one would think (I mean, I'm a 9th generation New Orleanian with a greatx4 grandfather from Haiti and I certainly don't practice Voodoo) and Morgana did have an argument with some teens she caught bothering her goats a couple of days ago. It is just the pure evil of teenagers, most likely.

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Old Today, 04:49 AM   #25478
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I think you are laboring under the delusion that meat eating/animals dying is inherently an evil thing.
You are more than welcome to believe wholeheartedly in this (subjective) concept, but please be aware that the world is positively filled with people who disagree.

There is nothing wrong with killing animals! There IS something deeply disturbing, and wrong, in glorying in their death!
And I think you are under the delusion that your moral decisions are absolute and represent the ultimate truth and that you can decide which killings are right and which aren't when "killing" IS inherently and intrinsically wrong. But I doubt you can ever comprehend that especially in the light of your text in bold red...
You are of course free to believe in your self justification of killings (if it makes you feel better) but know that the world is positively filled with people who disagree.

History is full of people who believe they know which killings are right and which aren't and such people make ALWAYS IN THE END for the darkest pages of humanity's INglorious past.

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Originally Posted by eschwartz View Post
Killing for food is a fundamental part of nature. (Ever seen, like, most of the animal kingdom?)
Funny I thought we had evolved beyond simple animals, that we had grown a consciousness and freedom of choice (in this case NOT to act like animals in nature...)
But I guess I was just under the "delusion" of it...

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Old Today, 10:12 AM   #25479
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Originally Posted by Quexos View Post
And I think you are under the delusion that your moral decisions are absolute and represent the ultimate truth and that you can decide which killings are right and which aren't when "killing" IS inherently and intrinsically wrong. But I doubt you can ever comprehend that especially in the light of your text in bold red...
You are of course free to believe in your self justification of killings (if it makes you feel better) but know that the world is positively filled with people who disagree.

History is full of people who believe they know which killings are right and which aren't and such people make ALWAYS IN THE END for the darkest pages of humanity's INglorious past.



Funny I thought we had evolved beyond simple animals, that we had grown a consciousness and freedom of choice (in this case NOT to act like animals in nature...)
But I guess I was just under the "delusion" of it...
A) you can eat meat and be against wanton cruelty. I respect vegetarians and could easily be a lacto-ovo vegetarian but you can't force it on people. Factory-farming is evil, though, and, if my mother (who was a severe vegetarian for a bit in the 1970s, actually, until she passed out in a grocery store), wasn't living with me and doing the majority of the cooking, I would be (except for eating seafood when going out to eat, I imagine. I do live in New Orleans).

B) What, actually, would happen to all these animals from breeds/species that wouldn't even be here if we hadn't bred and raised them for food? You do know that there are many traditionally pet animals (cats, dogs) that can't find good homes, right? What will happen to all these domestic cows and pigs, not to mention poultry? No one is going to keep them in those numbers if they can't make a profit off of them. What is going to happen to all those animals if everyone becomes Vegan (or even just lacto-ovo)?

C) None of this, in my opinion, has anything to do with the kind of evil that would brutally kill a cute, innocent baby goat not even intended for the meat market just for revenge or kicks or being evil teenagers.

/BTW, I believe that animals do have consciousness. There are levels of consciousness, IMHO. Even plants respond to music, for example.

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Old Today, 10:54 AM   #25480
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And thank you to all who expressed sympathy. It is a horrible thing to have happened.
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Old Today, 11:52 AM   #25481
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Originally Posted by Quexos View Post
And I think you are under the delusion that your moral decisions are absolute and represent the ultimate truth and that you can decide which killings are right and which aren't when "killing" IS inherently and intrinsically wrong. But I doubt you can ever comprehend that especially in the light of your text in bold red...
My point, since you seem to have missed it, is that your arbitrary moral decisions are not inherently better or more just than my arbitrary moral decisions.
But at least I don't judge people who don't eat meat.

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You are of course free to believe in your self justification of killings (if it makes you feel better)
Thank you

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but know that the world is positively filled with people who disagree.
Um, no...

Quote:
History is full of people who believe they know which killings are right and which aren't and such people make ALWAYS IN THE END for the darkest pages of humanity's INglorious past.
Ah, so killing an animal for food is the direct modern equivalent of every brutal mass murder against sentient, reasoning human beings, is it?

I suppose I can draw a conclusion from there -- I am a mass murderer, and should probably be put to death.

Quote:
Funny I thought we had evolved beyond simple animals, that we had grown a consciousness and freedom of choice (in this case NOT to act like animals in nature...)
But I guess I was just under the "delusion" of it...
Thank you for being so misunderstanding.

There is nothing wrong with the inherent idea of ending other lives, but there is something wrong with the idea of ending human life -- this overrides the base state.
Not because "we have evolved", just basic courtesy to our fellow homo sapiens.

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Old Today, 12:04 PM   #25482
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Originally Posted by covingtoncat73 View Post
A) you can eat meat and be against wanton cruelty.
Unless one assumes eating meat IS the wanton cruelty, it seems.

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B) What, actually, would happen to all these animals from breeds/species that wouldn't even be here if we hadn't bred and raised them for food? You do know that there are many traditionally pet animals (cats, dogs) that can't find good homes, right? What will happen to all these domestic cows and pigs, not to mention poultry? No one is going to keep them in those numbers if they can't make a profit off of them. What is going to happen to all those animals if everyone becomes Vegan (or even just lacto-ovo)?
Obviously, they form their own farm, and agree to share the benefits. Some wise animals (pigs maybe?) will oversee things and make sure all animals are treated equally, since humans cannot be trusted.
Or was that the wrong story?

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C) None of this, in my opinion, has anything to do with the kind of evil that would brutally kill a cute, innocent baby goat not even intended for the meat market just for revenge or kicks or being evil teenagers.
Ah, but it seems people who eat meat do it just for kicks.

Quote:
/BTW, I believe that animals do have consciousness. There are levels of consciousness, IMHO. Even plants respond to music, for example.
Does that mean if I pick a flower, I have murdered a conscious entity?
This is an excellent point -- more than mere "consciousness, on *some* level" is needed to make a collection of living cells deserving of special protection.
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Old Today, 12:08 PM   #25483
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And thank you to all who expressed sympathy. It is a horrible thing to have happened.
Hopefully they will be caught soon, and offered reasons to refrain from doing so ever again.
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Old Today, 12:09 PM   #25484
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Obviously, they form their own farm, and agree to share the benefits. Some wise animals (pigs maybe?) will oversee things and make sure all animals are treated equally, since humans cannot be trusted.
Or was that the wrong story?
Thanks for the idea, I'll get right on it.


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