Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > General Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-23-2011, 11:56 PM   #16
Worldwalker
Curmudgeon
Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 3,085
Karma: 722357
Join Date: Feb 2010
Device: PRS-505
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogue_librarian View Post
Actually the (non-commercial) translation was done with the blessing of the author.
The author has been dead for decades.

I write fanfic. Yes, I post it on the Pit, yes, under a different nom de plume, no, I am not ashamed of it. And I know that what I am doing is unquestionably infringement of several different varieties of rights. Depending on the particular situation, copyright, trademarks, or both can come into play. Fanfic flouts them as a matter of course.

In many cases, the rights owners adopt a "don't' ask, don't tell" policy toward fanfic: they pretend it doesn't exist unless it's thrust in their face. That generally works out best for all parties concerned: the fanfic writers get to have fun, and the rights owners don't antagonize their most dedicated (or downright fanatical) customers. And that's not true of all rights owners, either; there are exceptions. Some of them still refuse to permit, and some actively seek out and sue, fanfic of their works. Some, especially in the early years of the Web, shut down websites and archives. I'm aware of one fandom that was driven completely underground. But in general, they'll tolerate it if and only if the fanfic is fan fiction, written on a purely amateur basis by fans, and shared with other fans for free.

Obviously, when someone starts selling a book, that's not fanfic anymore. That's just pure rights infringement for commercial gain, and even I, as a fanfic writer and amateur copyright violator, can't condone it.

That's why the defense of The Wind Done Gone was that it was a parody, not that it wasn't infringement. And that's also why the author and the Mitchell estate settled out of court, because that parody defense might not have survived past the second legal round (the refused injunction being the first).

I like fanfic. I read it. I write it. I think it's fascinating. But it is infringement on the copyright and trademarks of other people (and you can be that the Saul Zaentz Company has all of the latter sewn up very tightly) and it's not cool to go around making money off it.
Worldwalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 10:42 AM   #17
WalkingDistance
Connoisseur
WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!
 
Posts: 58
Karma: 50018
Join Date: Sep 2010
Device: Kindle 3
Wow I had no idea that this was such a crazy topic...

I always thought it was okay because the author(s) weren't selling the material and making money off of someone else's invention. But i guess I was wrong.

Anyway, Yes the Good vs. Evil was a huge theme in the LOTR but I think it'd be interesting to flip it because there's always two sides to every story.
WalkingDistance is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 02-24-2011, 11:52 AM   #18
Worldwalker
Curmudgeon
Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 3,085
Karma: 722357
Join Date: Feb 2010
Device: PRS-505
Quote:
Originally Posted by WalkingDistance View Post
Anyway, Yes the Good vs. Evil was a huge theme in the LOTR but I think it'd be interesting to flip it because there's always two sides to every story.
Are there always two sides to every story?

Well, there are an infinite number of sides, of course, but two valid sides?

For instance, what is the other side to "apples fall when you drop them" or "the world is round"?

This "there are two sides to everything" fallacy is exactly why various media outlets dig up some "dissenting" view on, well, everything (at least everything a poorly-educated reporter can't understand) and give his views equal time with the overwhelming majority. They feel they have to give "both sides" even when there is no legitimate other side. Were the shape of the Earth involved, they'd give a flat-Earther equal weight. Shooting a guy in a saloon because you don't like his face is a Bad Thing, and no "two sides" can make it into anything else.
Worldwalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 12:04 PM   #19
queentess
Reading is sexy
queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
queentess's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,303
Karma: 544517
Join Date: Apr 2009
Device: none
Quote:
Originally Posted by Worldwalker View Post
Are there always two sides to every story?

Well, there are an infinite number of sides, of course, but two valid sides?

For instance, what is the other side to "apples fall when you drop them" or "the world is round"?

This "there are two sides to everything" fallacy is exactly why various media outlets dig up some "dissenting" view on, well, everything (at least everything a poorly-educated reporter can't understand) and give his views equal time with the overwhelming majority. They feel they have to give "both sides" even when there is no legitimate other side. Were the shape of the Earth involved, they'd give a flat-Earther equal weight. Shooting a guy in a saloon because you don't like his face is a Bad Thing, and no "two sides" can make it into anything else.
Ever watch Penn & Teller's Bullshit? I think you'd really like that show.

And yes, there can be two sides to a story (or, as you say, an infinite number of sides). Really, a story can be told from the point of view of any of the participants, no matter how minor. You can tell the story of the guy who shot another guy just to watch him die... but will it be interesting? Will it resonate with readers? That's the struggle fiction writers will face.

Take Lolita, for instance. Pedophilia is, arguably, wrong. (Morals aren't hard and fast rules like gravity and the shape of the Earth.) And yet here we have a "classic" book that's told from the pov of the pedophile. Is it a "legitimate" view point? It certainly made for an engaging read. I would read a re-imagined version of Lolita (probably already exists? I'm not going to check) from the point of Lo.

Last edited by queentess; 02-24-2011 at 12:10 PM.
queentess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 02:02 PM   #20
WalkingDistance
Connoisseur
WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!
 
Posts: 58
Karma: 50018
Join Date: Sep 2010
Device: Kindle 3
I just put simply 2 sides. I agree totally that a story can be told from many Point of Views (maybe infinite).

Will it be interesting to tell a story through a different point of view? Maybe. It could be dry or endlessly entertaining (that's life).

But in this case (LOTR), I think it's a particularly interesting premise. Here we have Tolkien who created a living, breathing fantasy world. There will definitely be many perspectives to tell a story. And because the whole story is centered around Good vs. Evil, wouldn't it be interesting if the premise was flipped? As queentess said, Good/Evil is somewhat relative. So what if the forces of Mordor were Good, and everyone else Evil? Because of this, I feel like this is really interesting.

Worldwalker, I feel like your argument of "Majority Rules" is in principle viable, but flawed. This is because where was the majority when the majority thought slavery was a great thing or when people thought that they were masters of others? Now you can look at the subject of slavery in two legitimate ways (at least):

-Economically, slavery is great. You don't have to pay for labor as long as you sustain slaves so they could work.
-Morally (based on current culture) it is wrong because who has the authority to say that another human being is to be controlled by others?

Both are legitimate depending on how you look at it.

So back to the LOTR fanfic, the author asked, "What if the forces of Mordor wasn't bad? What if that perception was a product of propoganda or the point of view of the story?" In order to make an educated decision of what's right and wrong, you need to consider different perspectives. To dismiss one side as illegitimate or stupid is just the narrowminded. No one will learn anything if they didn't consider all the possibilities first.
WalkingDistance is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 02-24-2011, 02:17 PM   #21
Worldwalker
Curmudgeon
Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 3,085
Karma: 722357
Join Date: Feb 2010
Device: PRS-505
Quote:
Originally Posted by WalkingDistance View Post
Worldwalker, I feel like your argument of "Majority Rules" is in principle viable, but flawed.
That's probably because I have never, not now, not ever, argued such a principle.

Quote:
So back to the LOTR fanfic, the author asked, "What if the forces of Mordor wasn't bad?
That's a good premise for fanfic. But it's still fanfic. The point being glossed over in a large part of this thread is that MR has a policy of not linking to fanfic, as it generally involves wholesale butchery of the canon author's rights.

Quote:
What if that perception was a product of propoganda or the point of view of the story?"
What if Tolkien was lying? (pretending for a moment that LotR is real) That is, again, a valid premise for fanfic. It's been done, and done well. But that doesn't make it other than fanfic.

But if we assume that Tolkien was an unbiased observer and told the story as it happened, then evil cannot be turned into good no matter what the point of view. There is no POV in which killing an innocent baby just to watch him die can be defined as good. All things are not relative. Conquering Middle-Earth, enslaving its free people, and co-opting their work for yourself and your minions (for example, what was done in the Shire) is not a good act, and cannot be defined as a good act. You can say that it is evil done to prevent a greater evil (and the Warhammer universe, for one, even pulls that off to some degree) but you can't say it's good.

As you've probably guessed, I'm not a moral relativist. I don't think that everything is good if you just look at it the right way. I think there are things that are wrong, and have always been wrong, and will always be wrong, no matter how you look at them.

Quote:
In order to make an educated decision of what's right and wrong, you need to consider different perspectives. To dismiss one side as illegitimate or stupid is just the narrowminded.
While you're accepting a flat Earth because it would be "narrowminded" to dismiss that idea, there are people who will say "hey, that's wrong" and move on. Personally, I suspect that they (going all the way back to Eratosthenes) probably know what they're talking about.
Worldwalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 03:16 PM   #22
WalkingDistance
Connoisseur
WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!
 
Posts: 58
Karma: 50018
Join Date: Sep 2010
Device: Kindle 3
No, I'm just saying it's narrowminded to say that the World is Flat. Period. You have to consider other possibilities, like it is round. It's narrowminded to dismiss the idea of Evolution before considering its plausibility. Vice versa, it's narrowminded to dismiss the idea of Creationism without learning more about it and making a decision.

Does fanfiction butcher the author's work? maybe. That's debatable. In this case, it's not wholesale because this work isn't being sold. It's being distributed freely. I don't know anything about the legality of these things so as of now, I assume what you say about it is correct.

I guess we have different views . Personally, I believe in moral relativism because what's to say that values today are the same in a thousand years? People used to believe that slavery was good. People used to believe the world was flat or that the sun revolved around us. People also used to believe in Zeus or Thor. I feel that the only reason why people think things are "Right" or "Wrong" are partly because of the current cultural climate.

Anyway, the whole point of this post was to just point out an interesting approach to something that's established.
WalkingDistance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 05:09 PM   #23
Worldwalker
Curmudgeon
Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 3,085
Karma: 722357
Join Date: Feb 2010
Device: PRS-505
Quote:
Originally Posted by WalkingDistance View Post
Does fanfiction butcher the author's work? maybe. That's debatable.
I didn't say it butchered the author's work; I said it butchered the author's rights.

Fanfic can be better than the original (when I read fanfic based on corny old TV shows, I see this a lot) and it still violates copyright and trademarks. There are various arguments otherwise, based on various fair use exemptions, but the only ones tested in court have come to naught. It's hard to argue that you have some kind of right to piggyback on someone else's creation. As a general rule, the most you can hope for is the owner of that creation accepts that you are one of their most fervent, evangelizing fans (which is generally very, very true, to the detriment of my DVD rack and my concordance shelf) and allows you and your work to violate those rights because they know you and the people you reach are good for their bottom line.

Quote:
I guess we have different views . Personally, I believe in moral relativism because what's to say that values today are the same in a thousand years? People used to believe that slavery was good. People used to believe the world was flat or that the sun revolved around us. People also used to believe in Zeus or Thor. I feel that the only reason why people think things are "Right" or "Wrong" are partly because of the current cultural climate.
So slavery used to be good, and it isn't now? The world used to be flat, and went all round somewhere along the line, and the sun stopped that mad zooming and installed itself snugly in the center of the solar system?

There actually are cases in which slavery was a superior option to what preceded it (simply killing war captives instead of putting them to work). So nothing is quite as simple as it looks. But if we're talking about kidnapping people from their homes for the purpose of selling them for forced labor in foreign lands, I refuse to believe that was ever right. Evil can be defined as causing a net harm to the world, and the enormous amount of harm that was caused so far outweighs any good that one could argue came of it that I see no other alternative than to consider it utterly and completely wrong. No amount of relativism can convince me otherwise.

The thing that makes us human is our continuing examination and refinement of that which separates us from beasts. My cat is content to remain just as he is; I want to know what I can do better than the generations that preceded me and to lay a foundation for those who will follow. I think that's why I reject moral relativism so strongly: its basic premise is that there is no "good" to aspire to, nor any "bad" to reject, no "better" or "worse", but only the feelings and whims of the moment. That's also why I reject those who would say that their/my culture and society are already the best they can be ... if so, then I have nowhere to go but down, and I will not go gently into that night.
Worldwalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 06:00 PM   #24
DiapDealer
Grand Sorcerer
DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DiapDealer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
DiapDealer's Avatar
 
Posts: 27,468
Karma: 192992430
Join Date: Jan 2010
Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD
What's the big deal? I thought Jacqueline Carey already did the whole Reverse LoTR thing in her The Sundering series?
DiapDealer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 10:54 PM   #25
carld
Wizard
carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.carld ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,698
Karma: 4748723
Join Date: Dec 2007
Device: Kindle Paperwhite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Worldwalker View Post
I didn't say it butchered the author's work; I said it butchered the author's rights.

Fanfic can be better than the original (when I read fanfic based on corny old TV shows, I see this a lot) and it still violates copyright and trademarks. There are various arguments otherwise, based on various fair use exemptions, but the only ones tested in court have come to naught. It's hard to argue that you have some kind of right to piggyback on someone else's creation.
I did some research and realized I was wrong earlier. Fanfiction has actually not been tested in court. I am not a lawyer, but its legality seems to hinge on whether fanfic can be considered either transformative or parody, if so then it isn't a violation of copyright.

Referential works like the Harry Potter Lexicon are different type of fan creation and have been ruled on in court. So far the rulings have gone against fans.
carld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 10:57 PM   #26
viviena
Evangelist
viviena ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.viviena ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.viviena ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.viviena ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.viviena ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.viviena ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.viviena ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.viviena ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.viviena ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.viviena ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.viviena ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 412
Karma: 520610
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Canberra, Australia
Device: Currently Kobo Clara HD and Aura One, iPad
Quote:
Originally Posted by WalkingDistance View Post
Anyway, Yes the Good vs. Evil was a huge theme in the LOTR but I think it'd be interesting to flip it because there's always two sides to every story.
Meh. I don't think the TLR fanfic does a good job of it, to be honest, and neither is Tolkien simply just a black-and-white writer as people often seem to think he is. LOTR in particular covers a small part of thousands of years of Middle-earth history, in which by that time, the die is cast. TLR seems to ignore all that backstory for a rather simplistic inversion of motivations and events in LOTR, and seems to miss or only work with indirectly some rather obvious angles for a reexamination of good vs evil, e.g. Tolkien's implementation of 'religious' belief. That said, I'd be interested on hearing your thoughts on TLR if you read it.
viviena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 11:17 PM   #27
WalkingDistance
Connoisseur
WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!WalkingDistance is faster than a rolling 'o,' stronger than silent 'e,' and leaps capital 'T' in a single bound!
 
Posts: 58
Karma: 50018
Join Date: Sep 2010
Device: Kindle 3
Deleted.

Last edited by WalkingDistance; 02-24-2011 at 11:17 PM. Reason: I was disrespectful, sorry.
WalkingDistance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2011, 03:57 PM   #28
queentess
Reading is sexy
queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.queentess ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
queentess's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,303
Karma: 544517
Join Date: Apr 2009
Device: none
Quote:
Originally Posted by Worldwalker View Post

But if we assume that Tolkien was an unbiased observer and told the story as it happened, then evil cannot be turned into good no matter what the point of view.
I don't think it's about "turning evil into good", just a matter of understanding the evil by seeing it from a different viewpoint. I will always and forever see pedophilia as a terrible evil, but I can read Lolita and get an understanding of the evil. Doesn't make it any less wrong or evil.
queentess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2011, 11:24 PM   #29
Worldwalker
Curmudgeon
Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Worldwalker ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 3,085
Karma: 722357
Join Date: Feb 2010
Device: PRS-505
As I understand the premise here, it's that the Fellowship and the free peoples are really evil, and Sauron and Saruman are really good. It's not understanding evil -- it's denying evil. Think "Lolita" with the premise that Humbert Humbert is unjustly maligned, and going on from there.
Worldwalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2011, 12:24 AM   #30
Andrew H.
Grand Master of Flowers
Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,201
Karma: 8389072
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Naptown
Device: Kindle PW, Kindle 3 (aka Keyboard), iPhone, iPad 3 (not for reading)
Quote:
Originally Posted by queentess View Post
I don't think it's about "turning evil into good", just a matter of understanding the evil by seeing it from a different viewpoint. I will always and forever see pedophilia as a terrible evil, but I can read Lolita and get an understanding of the evil. Doesn't make it any less wrong or evil.
I think this is an important point. And, just thinking about it briefly, there are a lot of works like this, albeit less literary. Elmore Leonard has a lot of books focused on criminals, and does a good job of giving the criminal point of view (to the extent there is such a thing) without making them look "good" at all.

And of course there's "The Sopranos."

Oh, and Chapter 4 of "Paradise Lost," which I suppose is even more "literary" than Lolita...it's in verse, after all.
Andrew H. is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lord of the Rings? netgeist Barnes & Noble NOOK 30 12-31-2010 08:10 AM
Lord of the Rings ebook? Pookeysgirl Reading Recommendations 9 12-06-2010 02:43 AM
lord of the rings series.. oncdoc Reading Recommendations 6 10-17-2009 01:32 PM
Lord of the Rings LibraryGoddess Sony Reader 10 04-21-2009 02:21 AM
Lord of the Rings for $1.99 Alexander Turcic Deals and Resources (No Self-Promotion or Affiliate Links) 4 06-02-2003 02:24 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:01 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.