No E-Books Allowed in This Establishment

[Maggie Leung]

Originally Posted by brecklundin

extendable in seat cattle prod should do the trick...of course some might actually like it and pay extra for the experience.

There ya go. New business model.

[rblover]

If every e-reader owner in the city boycotted the places, they would cave, or go bankrupt. Do it.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Harmon

My response would be "I'll leave when I'm through eating/drinking, unless you are prepared to give me a refund for my sandwich/coffee." Then I'd go back to reading my book.

I'm beginning to see a category of rules in modern life that we need a good name for. Something like "Dope Rules." A Dope Rule is a rule that enforced by someone who is not trusted to act with any discretion.

For example, the rules at TSA in the airports incorporate a number of Dope Rules. How many Swiss Army pen-knives have been discarded at the security gate because the TSA employees don't have any discretion to distinguish between a knife that is a potential weapon and a knife that is barely a threat to your fingernails? How many old ladies have to creep out of their wheelchairs to go through the security gates? The answer is "All of them." Dope Rules.

This "no computer" rule is a Dope Rule. The employees don't get to decide if someone is (1) working on a laptop or (2) reading an ebook. Their employer thinks they are dopes, so they give them Dope Rules to enforce.

Sometimes - usually, in fact - there's no way to deal with someone enforcing a Dope Rule. The reason is that he is either really a dope, and therefore unable to make reasonable distinctions, or his employer is requiring him to act like a dope, and is not allowing him to make reasonable distinctions. Now and then you can simply ignore the dope, or speak to a manager (Sometimes a dope, himself.) If possible, you should give the dope an answer which says "yes" but in practice is "no." My hypothetical answer about the refund is such an answer. It changes the conversation from "you can't read an ebook" to "I am entitled to a refund." Another possibility is "I'll stop reading my book when that guy over there stops reading his <pbook or newspaper.>" And another is "I'll leave in ten minutes."

That's not to say that the laptop thing isn't a pain. I never go to the Caribou in my neighborhood because the tables are always taken up by laptoppers. Interestingly, there's another coffee shop - Intelligensia - a couple of blocks away, and the customers don't usually do the laptop thing. The biggest physical difference between the Caribou and Intelligensia is the seating arrangements. The C has the usual table and 2 chair arrangement, with three or for soft armchairs. I has only a few table/chair arrangments, the rest being sofas or wallbars. People read & talk at the I. So I have to believe that at each place, the management has thought about what kind of customers they are serving or want to serve, and set up the place to attract them.

It's not so much a matter of employees can't be trusted to be discretionary as it is to avoid being accused of discrimination because of desrepancies between one employee and another. If you sit down with an e-book reader and the shop doesn't challenge you then another customer sits down with a laptop and the shop challenges the customer with the laptop, I can almost guarantee the laptop cutomer is going to to scream, "He's got a computer and your not harassing him!" I worked in a convenience store for 5 1/2 years and, believe me, the best way to avoid problems with customers is to follow the rules exactly and treat every one exactly the same. Otherwise, it's going to come back and bite you where you sit. My butt was saved more than once when I was accused of descrimination or harassment because I carded someone because management knew I followed the rules exactly and carded EVERYONE who looked to be under forty. The employees who made exceptions, rationalizing they were being discretionary, were the ones who got themselves into jams, including getting caught in sneaky police stings (which, in AZ, resulted in steep fines and could result in mandatory jail time and a felony rap).

[Maggie Leung]

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

It's not so much a matter of employees can't be trusted to be discretionary as it is to avoid being accused of discrimination because of desrepancies between one employee and another. If you sit down with an e-book reader and the shop doesn't challenge you then another customer sits down with a laptop and the shop challenges the customer with the laptop, I can almost guarantee the laptop cutomer is going to to scream, "He's got a computer and your not harassing him!" I worked in a convenience store for 5 1/2 years and, believe me, the best way to avoid problems with customers is to follow the rules exactly and treat every one exactly the same. Otherwise, it's going to come back and bite you where you sit. My butt was saved more than once when I was accused of descrimination or harassment because I carded someone because management knew I followed the rules exactly and carded EVERYONE who looked to be under forty. The employees who made exceptions, rationalizing they were being discretionary, were the ones who got themselves into jams, including getting caught in sneaky police stings (which, in AZ, resulted in steep fines and could result in mandatory jail time and a felony rap).

Yeah, that seems practical.

I read about some other coffee place in NY that banned strollers, lol. It was in some neighborhood full of young kids, and the management decided it was hurting business, because they jammed up the place. The ban outraged some, pleased some. I figure you can run your business as you like, as long as you don't break laws.

[kindlekitten]

on another board a couple of years ago there was a long drawn out discussion about the use of cell phones and laptops in restaurants. the over-riding opinion being; "go home and do that in your living room!". one of the new realities today is quite often the coffee houses and cafes ARE our living rooms! either we are traveling for work, working as contractors with no fixed office space, moving from one meeting, to another, or whatever the case may be, and this is HOW we get our work done. if the establishment is SO busy that they feel they are losing business then they can post a sign "you must order a minnimum of $0.00 per hour to stay here" (much like the "one drink minnimum at bars, or coverage charges). telling people that they cannot do something at a table that is not illegal, annoying as hell (acid rock at top volume), disgusting (picking your ass or nose) frightening to small children and animals, prone to dry up mothers milk, and so on just does not seem to be a very smart business move for anyone

Originally Posted by Maggie Leung

Yeah, that seems practical.

I read about some other coffee place in NY that banned strollers, lol. It was in some neighborhood full of young kids, and the management decided it was hurting business, because they jammed up the place. The ban outraged some, pleased some. I figure you can run your business as you like, as long as you don't break laws.

I've been to quite a few coffee shops especially here in WA State where mothers groups are meeting with the little ones in the winter, because playing at the park isn't always an option

[Marseille]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

telling people that they cannot do something at a table that is not .... and so on just does not seem to be a very smart business move for anyone

It's well within their rights, but I agree it won't make them more money. This type of rule is always going to cause more problems than it solves.

I like your alternative as well. Nothing wrong with saying I'd like that table for customers who are going to buy something new, but if you'd like to keep it, feel free to buy something new. Choice is better than non-choice.

[kindlekitten]

here almost every coffee shop I have been in lately has free wi-fi (or cheap). many cafe chains do as well. one; "LaPanterra" which specializes in salads and soups has wi-fi. I've filed many a report from them as well as seen quite a few meetings with people having their laptops fired up.

when that was my lifestyle, I was more than happy to buy something every 45 minutes or so

[hrickh]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

when that was my lifestyle, I was more than happy to buy something every 45 minutes or so

Which is generally the way it should be and most considerable patrons will do exactly this.

True story: I was at a Caribou Coffee in Chicago. This girl comes in with her messenger bag, pulls out her laptop, her iPod and her phone and turns them all on and starts to get busy with whatever it was she was going to do.

Then she pulls out a bottle of iced tea, a sandwich and some chips - all not purchased from there.

I actually got up, went over to her table and said "Seriously? Don't be such a leech - buy something!" She told me to f*ck off. Since she wasn't so quiet about it (and other people around had heard me tell her to buy something too), others basically told her the same. She ended up leaving, rather than simply spending a buck on a cup of coffee.

If you spend any amount of time in coffee shops, you'll see people taking advantage of the shop's services.

R.
==

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I would imagine it's because people with computers probably sit there for very much longer than those without. You'll notice that it was between 12-3pm - presumably their busiest time.

But with that logic, you could end up with no customers at all--or certainly fewer ones. Because if people with readers or computers are coming in and hanging out...and you get rid of them...maybe you won't have anyone at all.

I certainly wouldn't frequent a place like that. Hmph.

[Marioninyc]

The Times piece has gotten way too much attention. No one thought to ask the owner or manager of the establishment about the policy. I could easily see concerns especially around counterspace. What happens if someone spills something on someone's expensive blackberry or laptop? What if a patron has something NSFW on a screen in viewing distance of another patron? Of course "we" think of e-readers as being different than computers -- just another format for reading, but you're asking a busy waiter or waitress just trying to follow the boss's rules to make the distinction. This was one crowded restaurant, not a trend. I doubt kindles are facing discrimination. People are taking this story way too seriously.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by mike_bike_kite

... but I'm curious, by your definition, if I used my PC purely to read ebooks would it then become an ereader? Amazon are also about to open an app store for the kindle so does that now make my ereader a computer? I believe Pocketbook and Bebook can bring up a Linux command prompt making it no different to my work computer..

It's not the possibility of use, it's how the device is normally used. A laptop in a coffee shop is normally used to work, paid or as a student, or surf the net which is usually dodging work. Even though it can be used as an EBR, that's not it's normal use. 99 out of 100 people using a laptop in a coffee shop are not using it to read an ebook, according to official government statistics I just made up. Most of the people jogging the tables are working.

But 99 of 100 people using an EBR are using it to read a book, newspaper or magazine.

It's not a definitional issue, it's a common sense issue, which is why there's a Dope Rule - no common sense allowed.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by Maggie Leung

Yeah, that seems practical.

I read about some other coffee place in NY that banned strollers, lol. It was in some neighborhood full of young kids, and the management decided it was hurting business, because they jammed up the place. The ban outraged some, pleased some. I figure you can run your business as you like, as long as you don't break laws.

Dope Rules always can be explained as practical. Dope Rules always make things easier for the people enforcing them. They are still Dope Rules & they are much too common. Whenever possible they should be subverted, so long as the matter does not involve an issue of other people's safety. (Your own safety is your own concern!)

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by Marioninyc

The Times piece has gotten way too much attention. No one thought to ask the owner or manager of the establishment about the policy. I could easily see concerns especially around counterspace. What happens if someone spills something on someone's expensive blackberry or laptop? What if a patron has something NSFW on a screen in viewing distance of another patron? Of course "we" think of e-readers as being different than computers -- just another format for reading, but you're asking a busy waiter or waitress just trying to follow the boss's rules to make the distinction. This was one crowded restaurant, not a trend. I doubt kindles are facing discrimination. People are taking this story way too seriously.

as far as spills that is a chance anyone takes anywhere and it includes jewlery and clothes.

as far as NSFW that could be dead tree as well.

no go on those arguments

[Marioninyc]

I'm not arguing. I agree with you. The point I was trying to make was simply that someone had this experience in a crowded restaurant at lunch hour and wrote about it, and people are jumping to conclusions. No one thought to actually get a statement from the restaurant owner or manager about the rationale behind the policy or what waitstaff enforcing the rule were told or anything else.

[Maggie Leung]

Originally Posted by Harmon

Dope Rules always can be explained as practical. Dope Rules always make things easier for the people enforcing them. They are still Dope Rules & they are much too common. Whenever possible they should be subverted, so long as the matter does not involve an issue of other people's safety. (Your own safety is your own concern!)

Subvert away. In such a case, I just vote with my money. If business owners wanna risk their business, that's their choice.