Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > Writers' Corner

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-28-2013, 10:57 AM   #16
ApK
Award-Winning Participant
ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 7,310
Karma: 67564074
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ, USA
Device: Kindle
Slightly off topic, but isn't the convention to spell out numbers less than ten, i.e., "one in six" rather than "1 in 6?"

FWIW, I think that "are" is correct and, perhaps more importantly, it sounds better. To my American ears, anyway.

I note that different English speaking countries often use singulars and plurals differently.

Last edited by ApK; 08-28-2013 at 11:01 AM.
ApK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2013, 08:47 PM   #17
MacEachaidh
Browser
MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
MacEachaidh's Avatar
 
Posts: 745
Karma: 578294
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Kobo Touch, Kobo Aura HD
Thanks for the replies, folks. Some specific responses:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
Harry, it depends. The subject isn't the one boy; it's the statistic, isn't it? The "1 in 6 boys," not the one? Is "one" the noun and subject, or is "boys" the noun and subject?
The subject is actually a noun that is implied, and not visible in the sentence. The phrase in full is in fact "1 boy out of 6 boys", which boils down to "1 boy" being the subject. Similarly, you could express the phrase as "1 boy in 6", which still makes "1 boy" the subject. So yeah, the subject is singular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillAdams View Post
There are more than 6 boys in Australia, so more than 1 boy is a statistic.

One of my six friends is short.

On average, one out of six boys that I know are short.
It seems clear to me that in your last sentence the "out of six boys: is a modifier, and so is a subordinate phrase; the main structure of the sentence is "one (out of six boys that I know) are short" — "one are short" obviously doesn't work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samhy View Post
If it were me, with my French background, I would use "is" because it's referring to the sentence subject "one in six".
I agree with your points, samhy. There seems to be a tendency in modern English to treat collective nouns as plural, treating them as if the sentence is speaking about the multiple elements in the collective, rather than the collective itself. That's a break with traditional grammar, but it's growing in usage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApK View Post
Slightly off topic, but isn't the convention to spell out numbers less than ten, i.e., "one in six" rather than "1 in 6?"
Yes you're right. The reason I didn't change it is there seems to be a convention, certainly with websites and things like PowerPoint presentations (!!) to put statistics as numerals, even when they're single digits, because the emaning and import is more immediately accessible.

Quote:
FWIW, I think that "are" is correct and, perhaps more importantly, it sounds better. To my American ears, anyway.
Which is why I mentioned vernacular usage. I think it's become a question of which one most people are more used to hearing, rather than which one is necessarily "correct".[/QUOTE]

I may suggest to the bloke that he reword the sentence. But he wants it as brief as possible, and I don't think he wants to change it. It's his site!

For my part, I've found the comments really useful and interesting, so thanks.
MacEachaidh is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 08-28-2013, 08:58 PM   #18
MacEachaidh
Browser
MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
MacEachaidh's Avatar
 
Posts: 745
Karma: 578294
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Kobo Touch, Kobo Aura HD
Quote:
Originally Posted by samhy View Post
Maybe that can be of some help.
Quote:
Fractions and percentages take the singular when they modify a mass noun and the plural when they modify a plural noun; either the singular or the plural may be used when they modify a collective noun.
As an aside, I strongly disagree with the latter part of Mary Nell's point here. The two examples she gives for the point she makes are:

Quote:
Sigurd's soccer team is going to the state tournament. (= the team as a whole)

Sigurd's soccer team all have the flu. (= the individual team members)
For me, the second example is simply wrong, even though it occurs commonly nowadays. It's what I was referring to in my post above, where I said the trend appears to be for the collective to be perceived as meaning the individual members collectively, rather than as a single entity, and is thus given a plural verb. It happens a lot (Microsoft are releasing a new version of Windows, France are blocking the Security Council resolution), and to my ear it's wrong every time.

"Sigurd's soccer team" is not the same as "The members of Sigurd's soccer team" or "Sigurd's players", so it shouldn't be grammatically construed as if it were.
MacEachaidh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2013, 09:32 PM   #19
caleb72
Indie Advocate
caleb72 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.caleb72 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.caleb72 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.caleb72 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.caleb72 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.caleb72 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.caleb72 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.caleb72 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.caleb72 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.caleb72 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.caleb72 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
caleb72's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,863
Karma: 18794463
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Device: Kindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacEachaidh View Post
The subject is actually a noun that is implied, and not visible in the sentence. The phrase in full is in fact "1 boy out of 6 boys", which boils down to "1 boy" being the subject. Similarly, you could express the phrase as "1 boy in 6", which still makes "1 boy" the subject. So yeah, the subject is singular.
Exactly what I would have said. If it has actually been written as a fraction, ie one sixth of boys, I would have used the plural, but in this case, I would mentally insert the implied noun and use a singular verb.
caleb72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2013, 11:55 PM   #20
AlexBell
Wizard
AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
AlexBell's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,413
Karma: 13369310
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Launceston, Tasmania
Device: Sony PRS T3, Kobo Glo, Kindle Touch, iPad, Samsung SB 2 tablet
Why not just say 'more than one in six boys in Australia has been sexually abused....'
AlexBell is offline   Reply With Quote
Advert
Old 08-29-2013, 01:04 AM   #21
GA Russell
Montreal wins Grey Cup!
GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
GA Russell's Avatar
 
Posts: 7,580
Karma: 31484197
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Raleigh, NC
Device: Paperwhite, Kindles 10 & 4 and jetBook Lite
I vote...one (in six) is.
GA Russell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 04:48 AM   #22
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 85,544
Karma: 93383043
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacEachaidh View Post
It's what I was referring to in my post above, where I said the trend appears to be for the collective to be perceived as meaning the individual members collectively, rather than as a single entity, and is thus given a plural verb. It happens a lot (Microsoft are releasing a new version of Windows, France are blocking the Security Council resolution), and to my ear it's wrong every time.
This is a difference between British and American English. British English normally treats collective nouns (companies, etc) as plural; American English as singular. Thus in British English you would normally have "Microsoft are releasing a new product", but in American English "Microsoft is releasing a new product".

If you look at "The Financial Times" (a quintessentially British business newspaper) you'll find that companies are always referred to in the plural.
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 05:04 AM   #23
rhadin
Literacy = Understanding
rhadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rhadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rhadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rhadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rhadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rhadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rhadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rhadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rhadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rhadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.rhadin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
rhadin's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,833
Karma: 59674358
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The World of Books
Device: Nook, Nook Tablet
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApK View Post
Slightly off topic, but isn't the convention to spell out numbers less than ten, i.e., "one in six" rather than "1 in 6?"

FWIW, I think that "are" is correct and, perhaps more importantly, it sounds better. To my American ears, anyway.

I note that different English speaking countries often use singulars and plurals differently.
No, it is not the convention in the sense that one in six is more correct than 1 in 6. It depends on the style that is being applied (at least in the U.S.). For example, if the project is a medical book applying the American Medical Association's style, the numbers are numbers, not spelled out. Chicago style would spell it out except as otherwise noted in section 9 of the manual, which runs through a lot of exceptions and other possibilities, and which probably comes down on the side of using numerals.

More important is consistency than whether a number is a numeral or spelled out.
rhadin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 05:35 AM   #24
samhy
Wizard
samhy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.samhy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.samhy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.samhy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.samhy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.samhy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.samhy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.samhy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.samhy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.samhy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.samhy ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
samhy's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,820
Karma: 9503859
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: France
Device: (Sony (J) PRS 650), Kobo Mini, Kobo Glo HD
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacEachaidh View Post
I agree with your points, samhy. There seems to be a tendency in modern English to treat collective nouns as plural, treating them as if the sentence is speaking about the multiple elements in the collective, rather than the collective itself. That's a break with traditional grammar, but it's growing in usage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
This is a difference between British and American English. British English normally treats collective nouns (companies, etc) as plural; American English as singular. Thus in British English you would normally have "Microsoft are releasing a new product", but in American English "Microsoft is releasing a new product".

If you look at "The Financial Times" (a quintessentially British business newspaper) you'll find that companies are always referred to in the plural.
At first I was surprised by Mac Eachaidh's comment, since I clearly remember our junior high English teacher warning us to use the plural for things like a team or the police. In French, those nouns refer to an entity so the following verb is always singular, hence the special attention we have to put on those words when using them.
But thanks to HarryT's comment that made sense, because that was British English we were taught.

Side note: I was tutoring a 13-year boy last year and it was interesting to see that his textbooks were sometimes pointing out differences in spelling, pronunciation or words between British English and American English.
samhy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 06:00 AM   #25
MacEachaidh
Browser
MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.MacEachaidh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
MacEachaidh's Avatar
 
Posts: 745
Karma: 578294
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Kobo Touch, Kobo Aura HD
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
This is a difference between British and American English. British English normally treats collective nouns (companies, etc) as plural; American English as singular. Thus in British English you would normally have "Microsoft are releasing a new product", but in American English "Microsoft is releasing a new product".

If you look at "The Financial Times" (a quintessentially British business newspaper) you'll find that companies are always referred to in the plural.
Well, I'm in Australia, so maybe we're between the two. I was taught that collective nouns are singular, and the Australian Style Manual maintained by the AGPS agrees, but I notice that on Australian radio and TV the trend seems to be to treat collective nouns (and entities like countries, companies or teams) as plural.

But I don't think it's so clear-cut between US and UK English either. The Chicago Manual and Strunk & White say singular, but the page Samhy linked to says a team can take a plural noun.

In the UK, the BBC Style Guide says BBC Radio News says plural, but BBC TV and BBC Online say singular. The Oxford Guide to English Usage says collective nouns are singular, with no exceptions.

Huh.
MacEachaidh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 01:28 PM   #26
Penforhire
Wizard
Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Penforhire ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,230
Karma: 7145404
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Southern California
Device: Kindle Voyage & iPhone 7+
I'm with Dr. Drib, as usual.

I would also say I was always taught to write out small numbers, like 1 and 6, as one and six. I recall that advice extending through at least the teens and then becoming more of a personal choice.
Penforhire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 02:05 PM   #27
tubemonkey
monkey on the fringe
tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
tubemonkey's Avatar
 
Posts: 45,460
Karma: 158151390
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Seattle Metro
Device: Moto E6, Echo Show
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacEachaidh View Post
A staggering 1 in 6 Australian boys are sexually abused before they’re 18
A staggering 17% of Australian boys are sexually abused before they're 18.

Problem solved
tubemonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 02:09 PM   #28
tubemonkey
monkey on the fringe
tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.tubemonkey ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
tubemonkey's Avatar
 
Posts: 45,460
Karma: 158151390
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Seattle Metro
Device: Moto E6, Echo Show
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApK View Post
Slightly off topic, but isn't the convention to spell out numbers less than ten, i.e., "one in six" rather than "1 in 6?"

FWIW, I think that "are" is correct and, perhaps more importantly, it sounds better. To my American ears, anyway.

I note that different English speaking countries often use singulars and plurals differently.
Agree

Agree

And I've definitely noticed that on this board too
tubemonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2013, 12:02 AM   #29
GA Russell
Montreal wins Grey Cup!
GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
GA Russell's Avatar
 
Posts: 7,580
Karma: 31484197
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Raleigh, NC
Device: Paperwhite, Kindles 10 & 4 and jetBook Lite
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
This is a difference between British and American English. British English normally treats collective nouns (companies, etc) as plural; American English as singular. Thus in British English you would normally have "Microsoft are releasing a new product", but in American English "Microsoft is releasing a new product".

If you look at "The Financial Times" (a quintessentially British business newspaper) you'll find that companies are always referred to in the plural.
Harry, can you explain how in 1967 I bought in England an EP (45 rpm) called The Animals is Here?
GA Russell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2013, 12:03 AM   #30
GA Russell
Montreal wins Grey Cup!
GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GA Russell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
GA Russell's Avatar
 
Posts: 7,580
Karma: 31484197
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Raleigh, NC
Device: Paperwhite, Kindles 10 & 4 and jetBook Lite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penforhire View Post
I would also say I was always taught to write out small numbers, like 1 and 6, as one and six. I recall that advice extending through at least the teens and then becoming more of a personal choice.
I was taught that as well.
GA Russell is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
KT "Ghost covers/files" again at 670 books, "stale" image entries in firmware VirgoGirl Kobo Reader 4 04-06-2012 02:10 PM
Feature Request: configurable space setting for "Insert blank line" in "Look & Feel" therealjoeblow Calibre 15 07-25-2011 03:14 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:52 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.