Authors pushing books

[SameOldStory]

I've reread everything again. Then I looked at the 5 main forums. On each forum I went back 5 pages.

NEWS and GENERAL DISCUSSIONS are really quite clean. Of course newbes will put their post in the wrong place from time to time. I'm sure that some of my posts may have been a little off.

The other 3 have pretty much what their title says. Deals on books, book recommendations, and writers talking about their books.

While I really would like a "Vampire and Mummy Romance" section I think that I was wrong at the other end. Yes, a section for the introduction of new books would make it easier for me to seek and find new authors/books. But I'll bow out of that discussion and leave THAT topic to real authors.

The idea of a symbol to signal "new book" might be a good alternative.

Whether he was trolling for new customers or just misguided the recent poster shouting "Hey, everybody, Look At My Web Site" kind of ticked me off. The poster of "Do readers frequent the forums?" was a newbe and I just don't know if his last post was for real, or just a joke.

If you remove new books from the other 3 forums and place them in a new forum what will the other 3 become? Certainly not very lively.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

The idea of a symbol to signal "new book" might be a good alternative.

As a thread tag, denoting "advertisement"? I can get behind that, though there is still room for evaluating its effectiveness/what gets tagged.

[Worldwalker]

So why do we have forum sections at all? Why don't we just have one big board, and say it's everyone's "responsibility" to ignore posts about Kindle tech support issues if they have iPads, or posts about kittens if they prefer puppies?

Steve, I'm really not understanding your hostility here, in comments like "dark little corners" and "where they won't bother us decent folk" and "nasty promoters", or the "who decides what's acceptable?" part. Nobody's trying to ban or restrict advertising. It's just forum organization. Just like there's a board for just about every other subject -- news, recommendations, all the different kinds of reading devices, assorted software, different ebook formats, feedback, fluff, even one to say hello on -- there should be a board to promote books on. That way people who want to announce their new books will know exactly where to go to announce them, and people who want to look for new books to read will know exactly where to go to find them.

Yes, there will probably be some people who don't want to read book ads who will avoid that board. So? They don't want to read book ads; they're not reading about your book anyway. But there are also people (probably a lot of people) who do want to read book ads, people who want to see what the authors they chat with on MobileRead have just published, or just to get some good weekend reading, and they'll make a beeline for that board and start browsing (genre tags would definitely be a help there).

Having a book promotion forum no more prohibits book advertising than having a Kindle forum prohibits discussion of Kindles.

P.S.

it just seems like a blanket punishment of anyone trying to promote a product, and essentially unfair.

So we calibre users are being punished by having a calibre forum?

And I have a Sony Reader; I'm being punished by the Sony forum?

In fact, we're all being punished at this very moment because we're discussing this in the Feedback forum.

Sorry, Steve, but that's not making much sense.

P.P.S.

let's face it, this isn't about giving ads an exalted place of honor, easy for people to find... but a way to lock them out of sight and out of mind. It's another way of saying, "Keep yer stinkin' ads away from me!" even when the ads are appropriate to the site, or to the thread

Don't put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by nomesque

Cripes, I'm not one of the people you particularly have in mind, am I? I know I've been rabbiting on about my latest book (NOW AVAILABLE AT - oh, right, yeah ), but only where I expect people to join in the cheering - and one little thread in Deals...

You're not, because you *participate* in the forums. You're not here just to promote or talk about your books.

I don't care how many forums you or Steve Jordan or starrigger/Jeffrey Carver announces their books in. If someone asks any of you about price, or formats, or why that book cover, or which other genre the book might be considered part of, you'd answer. If someone wants to know about font choices or whether a translation is possible, you'd answer. (The answer might be, "that's the default font settings and they look fine to me," but it won't be "just buy the book or don't; you shouldn't get obsessive about fonts.")

If someone says they'd never reach such a book because the title reminds them of their ex, or says it sounds pretentious because the description is too close to some recent bestseller--you'd answer, and not with "how dare you have an opinion about my book when you haven't read it yet."

The authors who regularly post here, who are involved in the discussions, are aware that readers' time is valuable too. They know that there are many reasons to read or not-read a book, all of which are valid. (They may think some reasons are stupid, but they understand that telling someone their reasons are stupid isn't likely to change their mind about a book.)

They understand that authors aren't doing the forum a favor by announcing new books here. We *like* new books. We like, for the most part, new book announcements. We just also like *conversation* about ebooks, and a lot of authors treat Mobileread as if it were a classified-ads section in a newspaper, not a discussion forum.

If you post your new book announcement in Deals & Freebies, that's reasonable. If you also post it in Writer's Forum with a note about choosing art for a cover, that's fine too. If you post it at the Kindle forum with a comment about the Amazon ranking system, that's fine. Post it in the lounge with a poll about "what should I rename Chapter Three?" Also fine.

Okay, maybe not everyone thinks it's a good idea to post about the same book in four places. But if you did, you'd do it in order to have *four different conversation topics,* not ads in four places where you hoped people would see them.

(And I owe you feedback. Feedback is good; formatting is being weird & troublesome. Must send email about this.)

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Steve, I'm really not understanding your hostility here, in comments like "dark little corners" and "where they won't bother us decent folk" and "nasty promoters", or the "who decides what's acceptable?" part.

You're right: That did come out sounding hostile, which wasn't my intention. (In fact, I'm surprised you didn't single out the word "segregation" as well!) It was my intention to question the validity of putting all the "ads" in one place, as not all the posts in question are the same, nor are they necessarily inappropriate for the threads they are presently in.

IOW, there are ads, and there are ads. And given the current layout of the MR forums, I don't see the locations of the ads in existing threads as inappropriate, nor do I see them as being so numerous or pervasive that they merit their own dedicated thread. By that logic, the mods would also need to remove all the Google ads and such to that forum, or some other, so no one would have to see them if they didn't want to.

But to do that, you're defeating the purpose of an ad... the right of an advertiser to have access to their audience (as long as they're not obnoxious about it), and the audience's right to ignore the ad at will. Move "ads" into their own thread, and you no longer have a site with ads... you have the MR Home Shopping Network. Seriously... how many of us are likely to spend much time in that?

So, okay, I'm just saying I don't see the need. That's all. I didn't mean to sound irate about it.

[DixieGal]

I like the ads. It is how I find books. Trolling thru the categories at booksellers is tedious and time consuming. Indie authors who advertise here are many times more likely to get my business, instead of being lost and pushed aside by promos for big name authors. And I ALWAYS appreciate when they bump the thread to remind me, as I mentioned previously.

[Worldwalker]

So, um, does this "right of an advertiser to have access to their audience" mean that you'll be running free ads for my website design business on stevejordanbooks.com? That's great to know; where should I send the banners?

On a less snarky note, regarding the "MR Home Shopping Network": I believe the term you're looking for is "bookstore". I go to them all the time, both online and offline, precisely so that people can advertise books at me. I just came from Baen Books (where I talked myself out of buying an advance reader copy of Monster Hunter Vendetta by meditating on the size of my TBR list). I'm probably going to be visiting Borders this afternoon (good coupon in the email). I'm a reader. A bookworm. A bookaholic. I like to read books, and I like to buy books in anticipation of future reading (given the situation with my TBR list, possibly even more than I like reading them). I've spent years deliberately training the Amazon recommendation engine so that it can advertise books at me more effectively. So why wouldn't I, as a typical MR member, want to read through a "Promote Your Ebook Here" board in search of even more books?

There seems to be a segment of the marketing community -- in my area, especially auto dealers -- who believe that nobody would be interested in finding out about their products or services unless they were tricked into it. They want to force their ads on people who don't want to read them. In short, they have a spammer's mentality. Seriously, who in their right mind thinks that their ideal target market is people who don't want to do business with them?

Yet it's not that people -- especially in our hyper-consumer culture -- don't want advertising. Hell, I was watching Sherwin-Williams paint ads on YouTube a couple of nights ago, just because they were so cool, and I don't even need any paint (check their YouTube channel -- the CGI is amazing). I get a lot of advertising in my email, but none of it is spam; it's all mailings I chose to sign up for, ranging from book authors, publishers, and retailers to local pizza places and mail-order steak vendors. I also get a fair number of snail-mail catalogs, mostly tech, pet or garden related. The critical thing is that I want to deal with that advertising on my own terms. I want to read those emails and catalogs when I want to, not when someone else wants to make me.

Take, say, Spring Hill Nurseries. They sell perennials*. They just sold me some more perennials, because I liked one of their specials in their latest email that I've subscribed to. Would I even have looked at it (except maybe to note who to blacklist) if they'd advertised in a way that interfered with something else I was doing? Hell no! But I'm looking to buy plants for the new place, and I've got a tight budget, so when their sale ads come in and drop into their proper "Spring Hill" folder (I'm a bit crazy with my Thunderbird filtering) I read them long before, say, stupid jokes forwarded by random relatives.

Your target market is not the people who don't want to read your ads. That's like trying to sell books in a clothing store. Your target market is people who are looking for your products, which is why books are sold in bookstores. And that's what I'm suggesting: not an ad ghetto, not a dark corner, but the MobileRead Book Fair -- in fact, that might be a great name for the board! -- where people who want to find out about new books can find them when they want them.

*note: I think it says something about me, though I'm not sure what, that among the plants I've bought from them are white-leaved hostas and pink lavender (which seems like an oxymoron).

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

I like the ads. It is how I find books. Trolling thru the categories at booksellers is tedious and time consuming. Indie authors who advertise here are many times more likely to get my business, instead of being lost and pushed aside by promos for big name authors. And I ALWAYS appreciate when they bump the thread to remind me, as I mentioned previously.

Dixie, nobody is suggesting doing away with book ads. My suggestion was a new forum section specifically for those book ads -- how about calling it the Book Fair? -- so that people like you (and me, once I've got my TBR list read down a bit) can find them.

I agree with you about the indie authors, too. One interesting fringe benefit of my refusal to buy DRM-restricted ebooks is that it has prevented me from buying books I would otherwise have bought from said big-name authors, and led me to buy more from people I'd never heard of before. From my experience so far, if the publishers see their role as gatekeepers, ensuring only the truly worthy are allowed to see print, they're failing badly. No indie book I've bought, even the not-so-good ones, has come close to the disappointment of Carpe Demon or The Cat Who Had 60 Whiskers.

[omk3]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

...

There seems to be a segment of the marketing community -- in my area, especially auto dealers -- who believe that nobody would be interested in finding out about their products or services unless they were tricked into it. They want to force their ads on people who don't want to read them. In short, they have a spammer's mentality. Seriously, who in their right mind thinks that their ideal target market is people who don't want to do business with them?


...

Your target market is not the people who don't want to read your ads. That's like trying to sell books in a clothing store. Your target market is people who are looking for your products, which is why books are sold in bookstores. And that's what I'm suggesting: not an ad ghetto, not a dark corner, but the MobileRead Book Fair -- in fact, that might be a great name for the board! -- where people who want to find out about new books can find them when they want them.

...

for the whole post, but especially these parts. I love the "Book Fair"!

Steve, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would actively seek out announcements about new books. I already do. It's the advertisements I don't like. This forum is about reading devices, and about books. It's full of announcements about new reading devices and new books. Not full of advertisements. Advertising is a bad word in my dictionary, about tricking someone to think they need the advertised product. But announcements, and information, I seek out. Of course I am interested in new books. As I'm interested in reading devices. Isn't this one of the main reasons we are all here in the first place?

Of course I'd be checking out every new post in that subforum. And I'd find it convenient not because all the information about new books would be hidden away, but because I would know where to find it.

And of course different discussions about books are perfectly reasonable, as Elfwreck so eloquently pointed out. By all means, discuss different aspects of your books in any subforum you can think of. But let them be real discussions, not disguised "buy me" signs. I think that's all anyone is asking.

[DaleDe]

If there were such a forum would reviews be allowed? Comments? Spoilers?

[Worldwalker]

I had to go back a ways to find a book announcement from the right Steve, but here's an example of what would go into the Book Fair section:

The House of Jacquarelle: Third in the Kestral series

And that search, right there, is an argument in favor of a new section: I had to dig for it. It's behind posts like "User Poetry", "Indie Authors on Twitter", "Beta Readers Wanted", and that great classic "Testing Signature". If it had been in the Book Fair, it would probably have been on the first page.

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

If there were such a forum would reviews be allowed? Comments? Spoilers?

I would expect that the author would need to make the first post -- the announcement -- and then whoever felt like commenting on the book, discussing it with the author, reviewing it, etc., would join in.

[montsnmags]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

I would expect that the author would need to make the first post -- the announcement -- and then whoever felt like commenting on the book, discussing it with the author, reviewing it, etc., would join in.

Actually, that would be interesting, since popular (with MR) books (eg. Steve's) would naturally be bumped through ongoing conversation towards the top of the list. Hmm...

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Dixie, nobody is suggesting doing away with book ads. My suggestion was a new forum section specifically for those book ads -- how about calling it the Book Fair? -- so that people like you (and me, once I've got my TBR list read down a bit) can find them.

While I like the name "Book Fair," I think I'd rather it were something boring like "Promote Your eBook."

The idea is to create a place for posts by authors who *aren't* going to read the forum rules and get an idea of the community standards before putting down an ad. (And I don't mind the ads--I just don't want them overwhelming the conversations.)

I suppose it could be named Book Fair (eBook Fair?) if the mods are content to move threads out of Deals & Freebies and Writer's Corner when they show up in those forums. Fora. Forii. Whatever.

[Worldwalker]

Well, there's space in the forum titles for a subtitle underneath, so how about:

The Book Fair
Announce your new ebook here!

or:

The eBook Fair
Authors, promote your ebooks here.

I like the second version better (thanks, Elfwreck). And yes, it might take some moving of misposted announcements, but most authors aren't idiots, and when they see a board subtitled "promote your ebooks here" they'll find the right place.