Changing calibre's library foders.

EowynCarter · 04-07-2011, 03:19 AM

The whole "library folders" have become kind of a trolling subject, and I though, enough !

I want this topic to be a place where people wanting this change can talk, exchange ideas, and who know, maybe it'll end up with finding a developer, making changes to calibre, or a fork if people are opposed to that.

I want this topic to be a place to point to, when someone comes to rant about his or her files being messed up.

What if that topic :
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=119175
Instead of what it’s currently saying, said something like “we don’t plan to do that, but feel free to come here and discuss", pointing here.

Oh, yeah, rule #1 here, no hitting, no trolling. Thoughts; ideas, on the other hand, are welcome.
It’s fine with me so it must be fine with you too -> not ok.
I wouldn’t like this because… -> ok.

And, if that topic somehow disturb you, fell free to ignore it.

Manichean · 04-07-2011, 03:26 AM

Moderator Notice
Moved to proper subforum.

I won't change the sticky because it reflects the current design decisions the developers made. Should those decisions change, I'll update the sticky, of course

Oh, and this:

Moderator Notice
I would like to second the "no trolling" rule. These topics have tended to get out of hand before. Please keep it civil.

EowynCarter · 04-07-2011, 03:37 AM

Quote:

I won't change the sticky because it reflects the current design decisions the developers made. Should those decisions change, I'll update the sticky, of course

I though the developers decision where like "me myself will not do because I don't see the point / don't have time / whatever".

But they never forbid people to DIY, or talk about that, as this post might imply.

Manichean · 04-07-2011, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

I though the developers decision where like "me myself will not do because I don't see the point / don't have time / whatever".

It is, as far as I know.

Quote:

But they never forbid people to DIY, or talk about that, as this post might imply.

You have this thread, get talking

Piper_ · 04-07-2011, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

The whole "library folders" have become kind of a trolling subject, and I though, enough !

Indeed, I think most of us would agree on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

I though the developers decision where like "me myself will not do because I don't see the point / don't have time / whatever".

But they never forbid people to DIY, or talk about that, as this post might imply.

Then it looks like perhaps the calibre developers forum would be the best place for this.

Manichean · 04-07-2011, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piper_

Then it looks like perhaps the calibre developers forum would be the best place for this.

I would like to call to mind the purpose of the development subforum. If this is to be about what alternative structures of the library folder would be preferrable to the current one, the discussion belongs here. If it is to be about implementing a certain structure, then it should go to the development subforum.

Piper_ · 04-07-2011, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manichean

I would like to call to mind the purpose of the development subforum. If this is to be about what alternative structures of the library folder would be preferrable to the current one, the discussion belongs here. If it is to be about implementing a certain structure, then it should go to the development subforum.

Yes, I know the purpose of the developer's forum, Manichean.

I just got the impression it would be appropriate from his talking about "DIY" in his answer to you, and his hopes of finding developers to pitch in.

Wherever you want it is fine, though. I'm off to bed for now. Nite.

kiwidude · 04-07-2011, 05:24 AM

FWIW, I agree with Manichean, the developers forum is not the place for this thread.

To be honest, when I first saw this thread my first instinct was to put it on the ignore list. I don't believe we haven't had a post related to this topic for months (outside of people screwing up their library by going into the folders and doing things). Despite perhaps what the OP posts as their intentions the temptation may be for certain posters to come in here and turn this thread into another emotion filled rant/rave fest as has happened previously.

However, call me a sucker but as long as this thread remains civil and emotion free I will consider it and contribute to the debate.

So - to return to the actual topic - the big question is WHY? You need to convince a Calibre developer like myself or one of the others here as to some valid reasons to make the effort. Here are some of the "why not" reasons that come to mind:

Encouraging users to "play" inside Calibre's folders has always been and will forever be a bad thing. If you accidentally or intentionally move/delete/rename files or folders, your Calibre database becomes corrupted. This fact is not up for debate imho.
If it ain't broke don't fix it. Calibre runs perfectly fine as is. Allowing users to customise something as significant as this could lead to them trashing their library, creating additional support issues. There will be users who will complain about it being Calibre's fault, despite all the warnings.
It may take a lot of development effort and certainly testing - which for valuable development resources like Kovid is better spent on higher priority features that the majority of Calibre users want, not the minority.

So, what are your reasons *why* you want to change the folder structure? And please don't just say "because it's MY library" as that is an emotional reason, not a usability one. It is Calibre's library, not yours. You can use Save to Disk to create YOUR own library structure. Had Kovid chosen to store the books in a database you wouldn't even see the folders and be asking this question in the first place, it is a technical design decision that you happen to be able to see them via windows explorer etc.

So like I say, please list *why* you would like to change the structure, stating use cases for tasks that you would want to perform that a different library folder structure would help. For instance is it that you want to browse them that way over a network from a machine not running Calibre or whatever.

Now before you think that I am totally against the idea of a change, I am not. I actually have one reason as follows:

I sometimes use Open Folder to view a books location to make a temporary copy of the file before doing an EPUB->EPUB conversion in Calibre, if I don't have the original stored elsewhere. Just in case Calibre does something nasty to it. When I am done, if I intend to re-use that Windows Explorer window I will often click on the top level library folder name to collapse the tree. However Windows Explorer sees that click as a reason to first expand all the folders underneath it. When you have thousands of authors on a slow machine or over the network, this is annoyingly slow.

It could be solved by having an A-Z etc type structure underneath the root of the folder. So in the above situation (or when I accidentally click on the folder during general windows explorer browsing) there is only 30 or so folders to read/display, rather than thousands of authors.

Now even this "simple" request raises questions. For instance, a-z is fine, maybe numbers go in a 0-9, but what about all the other author name variations? Where people still have brackets, dashes or various other nasty characters due to not yet cleaning up their author names? Or indeed the "Unknown" author? Not insurmountable problems, but they have to be considered.

Now if in itself this was the only change to be made to the folder structure then assuming agreement someone might work on it. However I suspect that is NOT what Eowyn etc had in mind.

For instance, I have seen people complaining about underscores in author names. Well, what are you going to do about invalid directory name characters that happen to be part of your data?

Another complaint is seeing the book id in brackets after the name of the title. Well, what are you going to do about duplicate titles that exist in your library?

A third complaint I have seen is that they want the filename to be Author-Title or Author-Series-Title or whatever. Again, what will you do about non-valid filename characters? What will you do about file/path names becoming too long? And if you include series, that means every time you change the series you have to rename files which slows down Calibre usage.

So - I return to the theme of this post - why? What exactly is it that you hope to achieve?

EowynCarter · 04-07-2011, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Encouraging users to "play" inside Calibre's folders has always been and will forever be a bad thing. If you accidentally or intentionally move/delete/rename files or folders, your Calibre database becomes corrupted. This fact is not up for debate imho.
If it ain't broke don't fix it. Calibre runs perfectly fine as is. Allowing users to customise something as significant as this could lead to them trashing their library, creating additional support issues. There will be users who will complain about it being Calibre's fault, despite all the warnings.

These are indeed perfectly valid points. It's true I see this from the point of view of the tech aware person I am. Thus able to understand that messing up with files might disturb calibre. And that i need to hit the "re-sync" button.

Quote:

What exactly is it that you hope to achieve?

Firstly, get some calm and peace around here. I don't want to see fighting and arguing about this issue anymore.

Quote:

Another complaint is seeing the book id in brackets after the name of the title. Well, what are you going to do about duplicate titles that exist in your library?

That is where you touch the one point that poses me problem with calibre. What I did for my own software, is to name the file "title" + "version". Tying to import a book with the version gets a "File already exists" error.

My Folders are totally independent. Sometimes it's author name, sometimes series name, sometimes something else. I would be happy with a "customtag/bookTitle_versionTag.file structure.

Quote:

Again, what will you do about non-valid filename characters? What will you do about file/path names becoming too long? And if you include series, that means every time you change the series you have to rename files which slows down Calibre usage.

Mmm, that something i didn't consider. If you want custom path, the system would need to know what "elements" are is the path, and when update is relevant.

DoctorOhh · 04-07-2011, 07:21 AM

I have absolutely no objection to a civil discussion taking place, but let's ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

Quote:

What exactly is it that you hope to achieve?

Firstly, get some calm and peace around here. I don't want to see fighting and arguing about this issue anymore.

... be honest. There has been peace on this subject for 53 days, since the last time you decided to broach this subject.

That said, good luck in your attempt to engage the folks in a constructive dialog on this topic.

kiwidude · 04-07-2011, 08:02 AM

@dwanthny - totally agree, a point I had made at the top in my post as well.

@Eowyn - I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and then you blow it by putting a silly comment like that in your post. That there have indeed been no posts requesting this for two months indicates to me that there really is not that much demand for change.

I'm out... good luck.

EowynCarter · 04-07-2011, 08:58 AM

Quote:

... be honest. There has been peace on this subject for 53 days, since the last time you decided to broach this subject.

Oh, What about the "don't open topic on that subject" ? Sorry, I find having to say people to shut up kind of sad.

DoctorOhh · 04-07-2011, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

Oh, What about the "don't open topic on that subject" ? Sorry, I find having to say people to shut up kind of sad.

Are you going to go into the rabbit hole again or do you genuinely wish to have a constructive dialog on the subject?

If the former this thread will die quickly. If the latter then I suggest you stick with the topic you opened with.

Since this topic doesn't interest me in the least I won't be participating further.

I do wish you luck moving forward.

Manichean · 04-07-2011, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

Oh, What about the "don't open topic on that subject" ? Sorry, I find having to say people to shut up kind of sad.

You'll note that it says "Please don't..." in the sticky, and this thread is still open as well. However, please keep this discussion on topic- there have been exactly two posts on topic so far.

EowynCarter · 04-07-2011, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manichean

You'll note that it says "Please don't..." in the sticky, and this thread is still open as well. However, please keep this discussion on topic- there have been exactly two posts on topic so far.

Don't, Please don't, the same meaning. The second one is just more polite.

04-07-2011, 05:24 AM	#8
kiwidude Calibre Plugins Developer Posts: 4,636 Karma: 2162064 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Australia Device: Kindle Oasis	FWIW, I agree with Manichean, the developers forum is not the place for this thread. To be honest, when I first saw this thread my first instinct was to put it on the ignore list. I don't believe we haven't had a post related to this topic for months (outside of people screwing up their library by going into the folders and doing things). Despite perhaps what the OP posts as their intentions the temptation may be for certain posters to come in here and turn this thread into another emotion filled rant/rave fest as has happened previously. However, call me a sucker but as long as this thread remains civil and emotion free I will consider it and contribute to the debate. So - to return to the actual topic - the big question is WHY? You need to convince a Calibre developer like myself or one of the others here as to some valid reasons to make the effort. Here are some of the "why not" reasons that come to mind: Encouraging users to "play" inside Calibre's folders has always been and will forever be a bad thing. If you accidentally or intentionally move/delete/rename files or folders, your Calibre database becomes corrupted. This fact is not up for debate imho. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Calibre runs perfectly fine as is. Allowing users to customise something as significant as this could lead to them trashing their library, creating additional support issues. There will be users who will complain about it being Calibre's fault, despite all the warnings. It may take a lot of development effort and certainly testing - which for valuable development resources like Kovid is better spent on higher priority features that the majority of Calibre users want, not the minority. So, what are your reasons why you want to change the folder structure? And please don't just say "because it's MY library" as that is an emotional reason, not a usability one. It is Calibre's library, not yours. You can use Save to Disk to create YOUR own library structure. Had Kovid chosen to store the books in a database you wouldn't even see the folders and be asking this question in the first place, it is a technical design decision that you happen to be able to see them via windows explorer etc. So like I say, please list why you would like to change the structure, stating use cases for tasks that you would want to perform that a different library folder structure would help. For instance is it that you want to browse them that way over a network from a machine not running Calibre or whatever. Now before you think that I am totally against the idea of a change, I am not. I actually have one reason as follows: I sometimes use Open Folder to view a books location to make a temporary copy of the file before doing an EPUB->EPUB conversion in Calibre, if I don't have the original stored elsewhere. Just in case Calibre does something nasty to it. When I am done, if I intend to re-use that Windows Explorer window I will often click on the top level library folder name to collapse the tree. However Windows Explorer sees that click as a reason to first expand all the folders underneath it. When you have thousands of authors on a slow machine or over the network, this is annoyingly slow. It could be solved by having an A-Z etc type structure underneath the root of the folder. So in the above situation (or when I accidentally click on the folder during general windows explorer browsing) there is only 30 or so folders to read/display, rather than thousands of authors. Now even this "simple" request raises questions. For instance, a-z is fine, maybe numbers go in a 0-9, but what about all the other author name variations? Where people still have brackets, dashes or various other nasty characters due to not yet cleaning up their author names? Or indeed the "Unknown" author? Not insurmountable problems, but they have to be considered. Now if in itself this was the only change to be made to the folder structure then assuming agreement someone might work on it. However I suspect that is NOT what Eowyn etc had in mind. For instance, I have seen people complaining about underscores in author names. Well, what are you going to do about invalid directory name characters that happen to be part of your data? Another complaint is seeing the book id in brackets after the name of the title. Well, what are you going to do about duplicate titles that exist in your library? A third complaint I have seen is that they want the filename to be Author-Title or Author-Series-Title or whatever. Again, what will you do about non-valid filename characters? What will you do about file/path names becoming too long? And if you include series, that means every time you change the series you have to rename files which slows down Calibre usage. So - I return to the theme of this post - why? What exactly is it that you hope to achieve?

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04-07-2011, 03:19 AM	#1
EowynCarter Wizard Posts: 4,332 Karma: 4000000 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Paris Device: Cybooks; Sony PRS-T1	Changing calibre's library foders. The whole "library folders" have become kind of a trolling subject, and I though, enough ! I want this topic to be a place where people wanting this change can talk, exchange ideas, and who know, maybe it'll end up with finding a developer, making changes to calibre, or a fork if people are opposed to that. I want this topic to be a place to point to, when someone comes to rant about his or her files being messed up. What if that topic : https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=119175 Instead of what it’s currently saying, said something like “we don’t plan to do that, but feel free to come here and discuss", pointing here. Oh, yeah, rule #1 here, no hitting, no trolling. Thoughts; ideas, on the other hand, are welcome. It’s fine with me so it must be fine with you too -> not ok. I wouldn’t like this because… -> ok. And, if that topic somehow disturb you, fell free to ignore it.

04-07-2011, 03:26 AM	#2
Manichean Wizard Posts: 3,130 Karma: 91256 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Germany Device: Cybook Gen3	Moderator Notice Moved to proper subforum. I won't change the sticky because it reflects the current design decisions the developers made. Should those decisions change, I'll update the sticky, of course Oh, and this: Moderator Notice I would like to second the "no trolling" rule. These topics have tended to get out of hand before. Please keep it civil.

04-07-2011, 08:02 AM	#11
kiwidude Calibre Plugins Developer Posts: 4,636 Karma: 2162064 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Australia Device: Kindle Oasis	@dwanthny - totally agree, a point I had made at the top in my post as well. @Eowyn - I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and then you blow it by putting a silly comment like that in your post. That there have indeed been no posts requesting this for two months indicates to me that there really is not that much demand for change. I'm out... good luck.