Ebook Piracy

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by mrkai

... unlike music for example, most people don't read books cover to cover over and over again. They may refer to them from time to time, or re-read a really beloved book again, ...

Take a look in the poll (see my sig line). People in this forum DO re-read books, a lot.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Boy. This thread stopped dead so fast, it left skid marks...

I think some folks thought you took all the fun out of things with your gracious remarks. I actually thought that was a good conclusion to the thread. I don't know as there's anything new to be said.

Not that that has ever stopped the crowd before...

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by nekokami

Take a look in the poll (see my sig line). People in this forum DO re-read books, a lot.

...some built in ambiguity and skew on the positive side of the question.

I see this a lot in these polls...the questions are weirdly worded and have a lot of wiggle room

I guess it depends on the point you are trying to make. There is only one definite negative answer and the two answers with the largest amount of responses clearly could overlap a bit.

Most importantly tho, is we have a sample pool of lest than 100 people here

At any rate music has a few other advantages in its digital form over an ebook and is priced less.

Do with that what you will

[TallMomof2]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

And personally, I have never connected a book's worth to its resale value... it's a book, not a car. So I've never considered resale value contingent upon worth, nor decided not to buy a book because I wouldn't be able to resell it.

And I've also rarely connected a book's value to its container. There are a few ebooks that I've paid the hardcover price just because I knew that the book would be great and I didn't want to wait to get the hardcover.

Yes, I would love to pay a lower price for ebooks just as one pays less for a paperback than for a hardcover. My justification for paying higher prices is that if I really want to save money then I can wait until the price comes down or hope the library gets a copy. It's actually easier for me to justify purchasing ebooks since they require no physical space to store.

I have so many legitimately acquired ebooks in my reading queue that the Darknet holds little attraction for me.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by mrkai

( Originally Posted by Steve Jordan:
Although the low production costs of e-books (or software) may mean "absurd profits are possible," the fact is that really shouldn't concern the consumer...)

But it does. Its really not a philosophical question. its a market one.

Do you actually decide on whether or not to buy software, or an e-book, based on whether the author's income is in the six figures? Or on whether the software or e-book is priced resonably to you? They are not the same thing.

I wouldn't buy a $15 e-book... because I believe $15 is too much for an e-book (or a paperback, for that matter), even if I really want to read it. The author's profit margins have absolutely no concern to me, any more than what car he drives or what color underwear he prefers.

Besides, the amount of the book doesn't directly indicate the author's profits, since you don't know his actual costs, whether he employs help (and at what salary), pays an agent, is putting his kids through college, etc. So all you can really do is guess about such things. I'm not going to make a decision based on a perception of someone's profits that I have no way of confirming... that would be silly.

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Do you actually decide on whether or not to buy software, or an e-book, based on whether the author's income is in the six figures? Or on whether the software or e-book is priced resonably to you? They are not the same thing.

It is not a philosophical question

The rest of your comment (again) drifted into this. Talk about the business and some solutions geared toward that, because, quite honestly, no one is going to change philosophical points of view here...this is real clear to me now.

My concern is solutions that put money into author's pockets. I think a growing, health eBook market that appeals to eBook *buyers* can make that happen. All other discussion is really mental to me at this point here on mobileread and I'm really not interested in discussing people's "feelings" anymore.

Let's talk about the market landscape as it exists in 2007 and beyond and get guys like you paid.

To me, this is worth discussion.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by mrkai

...some built in ambiguity and skew on the positive side of the question.

I see this a lot in these polls...the questions are weirdly worded and have a lot of wiggle room

I guess it depends on the point you are trying to make. There is only one definite negative answer and the two answers with the largest amount of responses clearly could overlap a bit.

Most importantly tho, is we have a sample pool of lest than 100 people here

The questions deliberately overlap. That's why it's a multiple response poll-- people can (and usually do) pick more than one response. There's one item I'd have reworded (I'd have made the "I re-read many books" more strongly worded), but otherwise I think it's quite a reasonable poll for its purpose, which isn't to "prove" anything, but merely to get a sense of how many people who care to express an opinion in this forum re-read books, and for what purpose. You're on firmer ground with the sample criticism, but that limitation is clearly stated at the start of the thread, as well.

I don't want to hijack this thread with an extended debate about poll design, but I don't think it's reasonable to disregard the results with off-hand remarks about the wording. You are, of course, free to construct your own poll (or better yet, a proper survey with a defined population and sampling strategy).

Meanwhile, I stand by my original statement. I think it is quite credible to conclude that many MobileRead participants re-read books. I don't find this particularly surprising. This is a forum about reading, after all.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by mrkai

Talk about the business and some solutions geared toward that, because, quite honestly, no one is going to change philosophical points of view here...this is real clear to me now.

I've already done that... my business model is out there, and working (for me, anyway). What should be discussed is, how to make e-book publishers take the leap of faith into non-DRM'd publishing and prices that the market clearly feels are fair, as well as how to get e-book "pirates" to shop in legitimate sources and abandon "illegally obtained" e-book sources.

Make no mistake, it is a leap of faith that is needed here, as there are no guarantees that this will work for everybody. My method might not work for me, if I was as famous as a Crichton or Rowling, and other authors like King have tried methods that have done them more harm than good. The Baen model might be the most successful here, or maybe Harlequin is doing better, but I don't see other publishers and authors swarming into their camps.

We still need a proven, documented publishing method that anyone can use to get into e-book publishing and thrive. Until we have that, Big Publishers won't be willing to risk their shirts on the vague hopes and empty promises that are represented so vocally on these threads. And they'll keep throwing their books at Amazon and locking them up at high prices.

So: How do we convince publishers and authors to take that leap? And how do we convince buyers to honor it?

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

So: How do we convince publishers and authors to take that leap? And how do we convince buyers to honor it?

Part of the problem is basically a model where sellers are more concerned with people that DON'T buy things, by definition.

The hand-wringing over "but...but...someone that didn't pay for it will HAVE IT" is so ridiculous on a practical level it is really, really laughable.

It cannot be avoided. I mean JKR's books are all over the Internet. There are millions of potential editors out there perfecting any imperfections.

Someone told me they saw a version of book 7 in eBook format that even had the chapter headings in the book's typeface.

Bloomsbury nor JKR get a *dime*...not one penny.

From a business point of view, its fairly obvious that this is a product in demand.

Its is also painfully obvious to anyone that is looking that it doesn't matter if the publishers release these books. They will happen. They get no revenue.

If to them, its an all or nothing proposition, then its not going to happen. The reality tho is that it doesn't really matter. Publishers really have nothing to gain by not releasing popular books as eBook...drm free or not. They happen anyway.

The more valuable the "property" is (I mean brand in this instance) the more high quality the bootleg becomes, over time.

The idea really should be to nip this in the bud, short-circuiting the "darknet" process. Instead, they seem to believe they will be accelerating it, when the reality of the situation clearly indicates that either way, it exists.

As far as pricing goes, I think the $9.99 price point that amazon has is one that is workable...assuming publishers can add a bit more value for the money.

The Amazon problem is a simple one. There is no way to read your book on anything but a kindle...not even a PC.

If Amazon wants the Kindle to by the "iPod of eBooks" they would be better served by actually following Apple's model instead of the models used by all of the competitors they have laid waste to.

1. Anything you buy from Apple can be played on as many iPods as you own.

2. Any digital music you buy can be burned onto a CD which can be played on any cd player, anywhere

3. Any music that you buy that is "DRM Free" is still identified as being yours ; it is stamped with your account information

4. The system gives a feeling of actually *owning* what you buy. It does not feel "temporary" or "etherial"

5. The Price/Selection/Quality ratio makes it effectively better than "free" for those that are buyers

No other digital music solution currently offers this full package of benefits.

The current, and soon to be eclipsed leader in eBooks doesn't offer anywhere near the value and freedom to buyers that the iTMS does. It is neither "better than free" nor "competitive to Brick and Mortar" so there is no way they can thrive next to either.

How can this be fixed? I think what people are calling "social drm" is a good step (this allows for more "playback" options and helps honest people stay that way), the $9.99 Amazon price (tho I think $7.99 would be the "killer price point"), and the addition of allowing buyers to print one copy of the book (paralleling the m4a -> cd that Apple does).

How to convince publishers?

Well the same thing that is enraging them should be more than enough to convince them: they don't make a dime off eBooks traded on the internet.

[bojan]

You may hate or love the pirates, the fact is that music, movies and book publishers are in competition with the pirates. It's obvious that this is not a fair competition, but let's face it, there is no other competition. If you are a sole provider of the content, you can only be in competition with your self. And this a main problem in my opinion -- why would you want to sell your materials in digital content, if you don't have to? JKR has decided not to publish her works digital, because there is no reason for her to do so (for now). So, in this sense, pirates maybe doing a general public a favour in a long turn. They are fixing a problem, albeit in the illegal way.

Where do I see the solution? Like so many others have pointed out here, the PRICE and SERVICE. When content will be so cheap and so easy available, 99% of the people will not even bother to look for the free/pirated content.

The price part is all simple economics: you can sell in small volumes with high prices, or you sell cheap in high volumes, the outcome is the same, or even better for the latter. It's this point that publishers have to realize: sell a lot and cheap! Newspapers have already realized this, and are aware that they will even have to provide content for free, and make a profit in side services.

So, publishers, get of your butts, and start to compete!

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by mrkai

The idea really should be to nip this in the bud, short-circuiting the "darknet" process. Instead, they seem to believe they will be accelerating it, when the reality of the situation clearly indicates that either way, it exists.

As far as pricing goes, I think the $9.99 price point that amazon has is one that is workable...assuming publishers can add a bit more value for the money.

"Value-added" e-books is a common suggestion... but what brings added value to an e-book? This is something that has been less than clearly laid out in the past. Perhaps some suggestions would be in order here (by anybody).

Originally Posted by mrkai

If Amazon wants the Kindle to by the "iPod of eBooks" they would be better served by actually following Apple's model instead of the models used by all of the competitors they have laid waste to...

For Amazon to have been able to satisfy these points, they wouldn't have needed the Kindle at all. They could have simply sold the e-books by these guidelines, and let people read them on whatever they had. Considering how forward Amazon has been regarding their selling program, I suspect it was the publishers that pretty much forced them to tack a piece of hardware onto their e-book system, in order to get the publishers' cooperation.

Originally Posted by mrkai

How to convince publishers?

Well the same thing that is enraging them should be more than enough to convince them: they don't make a dime off eBooks traded on the internet.

Fine, but if they believe the amount they will spend to produce an e-book line will not net them a profit, they won't bother.

[nekokami]

Value-add for ebooks probably deserves its own thread, but I'll offer a few suggestions:

- Excerpts from other books by the same author or publisher
- Interviews with the author
- Audio files of the author reading an excerpt
- Scans of notes, maps, sketches, photos or other prep material the author accumulated while writing the book (this part of Rowling's website, for example, is extremely popular)
- Character indices or concordances
- Images of covers used in other countries or for other editions
- Popup map with links on place names throughout the text that take you to the right place on the map (think Children of Hurin)
- Embedded links to online book communities, with functionality possibly similar to DotReader (iLiad or Kindle could easily support this)
- Discount coupons for other books by the same author or publisher

Some of these features would cost the publisher more than others, but most aren't especially expensive or difficult to create. Much of this material already exists somewhere, and would just need to be located and/or converted to an appropriate format for inclusion.

[tompe]

I would like to have character names be links to where they are introduced.

[mrkai]

Alrighty...let's DO THIS! Go here.

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

"Value-added" e-books is a common suggestion... but what brings added value to an e-book? This is something that has been less than clearly laid out in the past. Perhaps some suggestions would be in order here (by anybody).

"How can this be fixed? I think what people are calling "social drm" is a good step (this allows for more "playback" options and helps honest people stay that way), the $9.99 Amazon price (tho I think $7.99 would be the "killer price point"), and the addition of allowing buyers to print one copy of the book (paralleling the m4a -> cd that Apple does)."

Anyway, I started another thread for this

[Aleksei]

I have only occasionally bought an e-book and I 'pirate' quite a lot of them, but then again on an avarage month I buy 20 books. Most of the time I also purchase real copies of the e-books I read. So I have to say that I don't think e-book piracy is that big of a problem. Not yet anyway, but in the future, who knows.