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Old 04-08-2015, 06:17 AM   #31
mr ploppy
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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Being able to easily trace a person who pirated (ie "shared") a book seems to me to be an extremely desirable thing.
You don't need DRM or watermarking to do that. Harlan Ellison traced someone who posted a plain text file of one of his books in 2000 without any problems.
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Old 04-08-2015, 11:35 AM   #32
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Leaving the moral discussion aside, I'm a little bit surprised to read some people think DRM will evolve up to a point they would be impossible to remove and/or easy to trace if removed. It goes completely against my own ideas of what is possible and what isn't in the software world.

HarryT, you quoted "amazon author", but do you even believe it?

To begin with, at some point the book must be readable on the screen. So one could simply take screenshots and OCR. And that can easily be made "untraceable". So, unless the future prepares software that is able to prevent any screenshot to be taken (including from unplugged photographic devices), I don't see how the pirates' situation could be made worse than now.

Plus, copyright owners technically have to let consumer break their DRM schemes: through the Copyright owners' approved software. At its heart, DRM stuff is wanting to let a client access content on his own computer while hoping the client doesn't control it (the computer). There are a lot of barriers for the "perfect DRM control", and one of them is that currently people can easily have unsupervised offline computers and can do whatever they want with the bits stored inside (changing them into 1 or 0). Anything that a software does with an online computer can be replicated later offline, and at some point the content of an ebook is raw in the client's computer memory.



On a side note, tracing bits (spyware) only work when people are unaware it exists. Once people know it is there, it is removed (if they have the will to do so). DRM spyware, DRM watermark, whatever it is, it shall be removed (at worse with the screenshot/OCR method which is a fallback that isn't even needed today).
What I mean by that is it will work only "once" (for a short while). Once people know there is spyware stuff, either they will be able to remove the spyware, either they won't be and it shall act a deterrent (from pirating, but also from buying in the first place).



Lastly, let me remind you that people's computers can be hacked, or even stolen, and their content distributed to the internet. If police finds a watermarked ebook illegally shared on the internet that was shared without the original buyer knowledge and/or consent, what do?
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Old 04-08-2015, 11:54 AM   #33
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The goal of "hardened" DRM is to minimize illegal sharing, not stop professional pirates.
That goal is readily achievable with app-locked content that does not expose discrete files in the file system and uses per-file keys or always-on authentication. It also unduly restricts fair use for my taste but there's plenty of folks out there who wouldn't mind.

Just because an experienced cryptologist can break the encryption doesn't mean the DRM system has failed in its mission. The actual metric they care about is how much "leakage" filters out past that specific DRM.

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Old 04-08-2015, 12:08 PM   #34
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Just because an experienced cryptologist can break the encryption doesn't mean the DRM system has failed in its mission. The actual metric they care about is how much "leakage" filters out past that specific DRM.
Exactly. The goal of DRM is to keep essentially honest people honest, not to stop the dedicated criminal. Just as the reason for locking your house door is to tell the passer-by that it's not a public space; a door lock won't stop a professional thief.
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Old 04-08-2015, 12:13 PM   #35
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I doubt there will be a drm that will be able to be used to trace where a share come from.

I tested software a few years back who claimed to be able to this, and was able to "crack it" (that was me job) and produce untraceable copies.
They do that now with watermarking. I'm not sure how resilient watermarking is in ebooks but a few years ago I participated in a test with Audible when they began using it. I was in a special forum they had to help them gauge customer reaction to their ideas and one of their developers told us about watermarking and I said there's no way that it can withstand conversion. So the company got a few of us with some tech skills to help them test it.

We all had each other's email addresses. Audible sent each of us a book, keyed to our accounts and we each did whatever we thought might fool them. Then we swapped books with one another, did further conversions on each other's books, and sent them back to audible. This is a few years ago and I don't really remember a lot of details but I think I have that about right.

Anyway they told us who was behind each book we sent back and they were right 100% of the time. So we did it again with another book and tried harder and they got it right again. I don't remember how many tries we made but it was probably 4 or 5. We never fooled them. Not even once.

I even went so far as playing the book on an MP3 player and piping the output into a computer's mike jack and recording it. Then I converted my recording into a different format. I may have then converted into anotoher format. I don't recall. They spotted it. They knew it was the book sent to me.

The long and the short of it is that watermarking works and is extremely effective at least with sound files. They don't do it by embedding metadata. They do it by embedding sound, carefully selected so it won't be noticed by the listener but will be picked up by any conversion process. How they do that I don't have the slightest idea but it works whatever they do.

With ebooks, since it can easily be converted to pure text in some format, such as HTML or RTF, it's probably going to be easier to defeat it, unless they know some tricks I don't, which is very possible. However, not knowing what they're doing it's going to take some serious study to be sure it's been defeated.

I buy my books. If a book I want isn't available through legitimate sources I'll get a pirate copy. I share my books with friends but only if I'm pretty sure they won't make them public in some way. I don't consider myself a purist about this but I do consider myself basically an honest guy. I don't really care what other people do but I like to be reasonably careful.

Anyway, back to the point. It's entirely possible to make a book identifiable and I suspect that can carry though conversion, although I'd be surprised if there weren't ways around that. When you're talking about DRM and defeating DRM any absolute answer to any question is likely to be wrong. Maybe, maybe not, is usually a more accurate way of looking at this stuff.

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Old 04-08-2015, 12:41 PM   #36
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Exactly. The goal of DRM is to keep essentially honest people honest, not to stop the dedicated criminal. Just as the reason for locking your house door is to tell the passer-by that it's not a public space; a door lock won't stop a professional thief.
I'm pretty sure that most honest people know that individual houses are not public space. Locks are there to keep dishonest people out. While it won't keep someone determined out, it makes creates enough of a barrier to keep someone who is casually dishonest out.

DRM's basic purpose is the reassure the technologically naive copyright holder that they will be able to continue to sell their "property" for the lifetime of the copyright.
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Old 04-08-2015, 12:56 PM   #37
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If one experienced cryptologist shares his work, the DRM system is failing from then on and needs to be renewed. Whether or not the DRM has failed in its mission depends on the cost of implementing the DRM in the first place, and an accurate estimation of loss prevention for the duration (which includes deterrent factors). I do not desire to give my opinion on the usefulness of DRM, since it's a topic that triggers passions (to my disgust).

What I hoped to convey with my post, fjtorres, is that even if a real "hardened" DRM shows its nose, it could be easily defeated with a program that just simulates navigation (click on the keyboard or whatever), takes screenshots and OCR the stuff.

A program that doesn't even touch the DRM part, and let the copyright owner's approved program deal with it.

@Barry
Your test is very interesting, but as you said it's harder to tamper books (there is nothing "undetectable" in the first place: it's a sequence of visible letters).
Additionally, I believe one weak spot of your test is that even though the tamper is resilient against typical audio conversion (it would work too with video), it might be less resilient against a difference test. In other words, if you got in touch with other testers and compared your audio files, you might have been able to isolate and remove the tampers.
Furthermore, if the tampers are located in humanly undetectable audio nuances (or videos nuances), countering it would consist of doing precisely the research Audible did, and randomly alter all humanly undetectables nuances. I dislike this, as I like the idea of data purity, but if copyright owners do it I guess pirates will follow.
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:50 PM   #38
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DRM exists because when my old aunt buys that new Orhan Pamuk book, she could and would send it to her friends if there was no DRM. While not fully comprehending email attachments, she knows how to send things with Facebook. She would not think that she is doing something wrong. Digital goods and personal licenses are completely alien things for her. This is not a matter of morality for her. And DRM stops her.

This is the purpose corporations have when they implement DRM and it works. Anyone who says DRM is useless, is honestly has no real idea what she is talking about.

eBook DRM as it is now is a tool of shifting paradigms. It will quietly vanish with time.

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Old 04-08-2015, 03:22 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doonge View Post
What I hoped to convey with my post, fjtorres, is that even if a real "hardened" DRM shows its nose, it could be easily defeated with a program that just simulates navigation (click on the keyboard or whatever), takes screenshots and OCR the stuff.

And at that point you might as well Scan and OCR a pbook.
Which existed long before ebook DRM even popped up.

Once you invoke the analog hole DRM becomes irrelevant.
Again, the intent is to make sure GERGE's aunt doesn't get too generous...
...not to prevent 100.00% of unauthorized copies.

Not even the BPHs are stupid enough to think they can stop every last copy.
If nothing else, they wouldn't be embedding watermarks in encrypted ebooks to determine which DRM scheme leaks the most.
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Old 04-08-2015, 04:21 PM   #40
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@GERGE
DRM surely dampens the propagation of "legal" files. Whether or not that is in itself the goal of DRM is probably the basis some have to claim DRM are useless (nor not). Again, I do not desire to give my own opinion on this because it's a very complex and delicate matter. I was just reacting to the very first posts where someone said DRM are to become foolproof.

When you talk about shifting paradigms and DRM being a transient tool, do you mean "lending" (sharing) books is to become a thing of the past? Like the "DRM will become perfect", it sounds to me like a bold statement (I would not claim that nor the opposite myself).


@fjtorres
No, one would not as well scan and OCR a book, since it's less automated than numeric files. Plus, think about the (increasing number of) books that are to be published exclusively numerically.

Anyway, if you generally agree with GERGE, and I would agree too, that DRM have a very specific and narrow goal, soon to disappear, and that DRM do not aim to be foolproof at all, then I guess I don't understand why we are talking so much. I'm saying that I don't see DRM evolving like that, and GERGE says that there is no need for DRM to evolve, and you say that aswell. DRMs are a bogus but somehow effective way of restricting a specific (but maybe big) group of people from sharing copyrighted content: the honest and uninformed people.
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Old 04-08-2015, 05:06 PM   #41
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Lastly, let me remind you that people's computers can be hacked, or even stolen, and their content distributed to the internet. If police finds a watermarked ebook illegally shared on the internet that was shared without the original buyer knowledge and/or consent, what do?
They always resort to this complaint in the end.

What do you do if someone steals your wallet and starts using your credit card?


Do you really think anyone will steal your computer to get access to the ebooks?
Anyone who goes to the effort of stealing your computer is most likely not a person whose goal is to upload ebooks as some kind of social rebellion -- they want your financial info, and you have far, far, FAR bigger problems.

Also, since you are so concerned about your PC being stolen, I assume you use full-disk encryption, which renders this discussion moot.

Last edited by eschwartz; 04-08-2015 at 06:35 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 04-08-2015, 05:44 PM   #42
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Who do you lump in the "they" eschwartz? "They" resort.

First, if my wallet gets stolen with my credits cards, I have to block my credits cards ASAP. I lost stuff. If I'm getting hacked (or snooped on), I have more pressing urges than my ebook collection (obviously), but if someone copies my files I still have them.
If someone uses my credit cards, I lose money, if someone reads copies of my ebooks, I don't.
So? Why do you bring that up?

It is not necessary to have one's computer stolen. A virus is enough. A snooping friend, coworker, or your computer reparator. If releasing ebooks in the wild was a good way of fucking up someone (big fines), it could be done just for the lulz, or for revenge in family matters. Some ebooks are contained in ebook readers too. And accounts can be compromized.

I use disk encryption, so what? Weren't we saying that DRM were for honest uninformed people? Why do you care if my computer is secure or not, since all it takes for a DRM file to be propagated is one breach (because numeric files can be, you know, copied)? The "security" of the whole amounts to the security of the weakest link.

And astonishly enough, you didn't even answer my question in your quote. Which holds interesting big ramifications.
I'm not aware of any legal case where a watermark is used to successfully fine someone. I didn't search though, but do you think it would work if it doesn't exist yet?
If you yourself think not, then your intervention was unwanted and brought me nothing.

And don't lump me in an undefined "they". I'm not pro pirating.
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Old 04-08-2015, 06:39 PM   #43
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Who do you lump in the "they" eschwartz? "They" resort.

First, if my wallet gets stolen with my credits cards, I have to block my credits cards ASAP. I lost stuff. If I'm getting hacked (or snooped on), I have more pressing urges than my ebook collection (obviously), but if someone copies my files I still have them.
If someone uses my credit cards, I lose money, if someone reads copies of my ebooks, I don't.
So? Why do you bring that up?

It is not necessary to have one's computer stolen. A virus is enough. A snooping friend, coworker, or your computer reparator. If releasing ebooks in the wild was a good way of fucking up someone (big fines), it could be done just for the lulz, or for revenge in family matters. Some ebooks are contained in ebook readers too. And accounts can be compromized.

I use disk encryption, so what? Weren't we saying that DRM were for honest uninformed people? Why do you care if my computer is secure or not, since all it takes for a DRM file to be propagated is one breach (because numeric files can be, you know, copied)? The "security" of the whole amounts to the security of the weakest link.

And astonishly enough, you didn't even answer my question in your quote. Which holds interesting big ramifications.
I'm not aware of any legal case where a watermark is used to successfully fine someone. I didn't search though, but do you think it would work if it doesn't exist yet?
If you yourself think not, then your intervention was unwanted and brought me nothing.

And don't lump me in an undefined "they". I'm not pro pirating.
I'm pretty sure there are cases where someone was prosecuted when pirated music or kiddie porn was found on their computer and it turned out that someone had hacked their computer and it was being used by the third party hacker as a way station. The overly aggressive prosecution of grandma's for piracy is what turned the public opinion tide against the RIAA.
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Old 04-08-2015, 06:45 PM   #44
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@Doonge -- "They" == people who have tremendous, irrational objections to watermarking. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe you seem to be in that group.

After the irrational desire that this be the one and only area in your life where you aren't treated as a *potential* thief, watermarking haters always proclaim that pirates are going to try breaking into their computer to get the books they upload.

It really makes very little difference whether pirates are more likely to digitally break in or gain physical access -- the idea is still ludicrous. The pirates already have everything they need to upload all the books they want, and they don't need your files.
If it was going to be done for the lulz instead, they could just steal your financial info, as I already said.
Revenge in family matters? Again^^ -- plus that seems rather overwrought.


I simply don't consider your complaints to be valid -- that is why I suggested you use full disk encryption, because I was assuming you are the paranoid type, and paranoid types should always use full-disk encryption.


If the police really do find your books scattered in the wild, I expect your account will be shut down, and not much else (it fits the timid mindset of the average publisher). Perhaps you don't deserve to buy ebooks, if you are a magnet for such ridiculous occurrences.
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Old 04-08-2015, 07:17 PM   #45
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I don't have tremendous irrational objections to watermarking.
I have some objections, but they are rationals thank you, and certainly not strong since watermarking is usually harmless (not always).

You claiming that we are being treated as potential thieves in all areas of life is irrational to me. Not that you are technically wrong, but it's not a dichotomy as there is a spectrum. For a watermark to work, your identity must resides either in the ebook itself or in the vendor's database (the identifier in the ebook is then not your identity, but an indirection to the identity in the vendor database). When I buy something in a store, I can use cash (anonymous for petty things like books) or a bank card (not really anonymous but it's a third party that has my identity: the bank). I'm merely highlightning so you understand.

Have you considered that maybe watermarking haters, which I am not (I do not hold strong emotion about it), use this argument because it holds some valid ramifications in it? Of course stealing a computer for ebooks is a severe strech, but it gets the point across if you are able to infer and think a little by yourself.

Financial information is not stored in the computer the same way ebooks are.
Plus, it's again a false dichotomy. Of course someone could prefer target financial data, but it's not exclusive.
If one could harm somebody by leaking his ebook collection, it would be done. It doesn't happen because it's not effective, which is my point. But if it were, it would happen so don't weakly brush the point.

I am not paranoid. I'm merely hypothesing and I'm not acting on it. You are highly insulting. Are you unable to think abstractly??

And yeah if occurences of my books were found in the internet, I guess my account would be banned, but what would prevent me from registering another account?
This security scheme is very dependent on having access to valid identity data. You said how we were always treated like thieves, and that I was paranoid, but I do buy stuff on the internet sometimes, and most of the webstores don't care.

Please do not engage me any further if it's to be condescending like that, while bringing nothing to the discussion.
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