iPad I beg every Apple Users' Attention!!

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Tamara

You missed the point. The OP seemed to have this rosy picture of the US where 18 year olds are all living the easy life going to school while mom & dad support them which is not true....

I think you missed the point.

If you travel a bit around the world, you may find out that even the poorest, hardest-working US 18 year olds ARE living the easy life, compared to many others.

[The Old Man]

Foxconn shows off China plant after suicides.

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by Sonist

I think you missed the point.

If you travel a bit around the world, you may find out that even the poorest, hardest-working US 18 year olds ARE living the easy life, compared to many others.

Really? you think the poor 18 year olds to be found living rough on the side of the streets maybe addicted to drugs and selling their body to fund a habit are living the easy life!

The point is every country has poor people! those working at foxconn are not starving like some people in the world!

saying the workers at foxconn need help because they dont have as opulent life as SOME people in the US is silly. especially when really we know nothing about the life of the foxconn workers not really!

what do the suicides tell us? not much really or about the same as the suicides at cornell(a UNIVERSITY full of 18 year olds living that easy life you spoke of) tell us.

[HansTWN]

The pressures in China are more related to culture than from the workplace. For the vast majority of mainland Chinese, success is only defined by money. Nothing else matters.

People in Vietnam, for example, are much happier, even though their lives are less affluent.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by stustaff

"Each employee would sign a 'voluntary overtime affidavit,' in order to waive the 36-hour legal limit on your monthly overtime hours. This isn't a bad thing, though, as many workers think that only factories that offer more overtime are 'good factories,' because 'without overtime, you can hardly make a living.'"

That seems like something they checked 20 years ago. The first question at the door of a factory when somebody is looking for work hasn't changed. It is still "do you have overtime". But 20 years ago the prospective workers were looking for "yes, we have over time", because the money was better. Now the answer they want is "no, we don't", because people want more free time.

And I can show you plenty of textile mills where your jaws would drop. But not because of the poor working conditions, because of how clean, spacious, light, friendly the work environment is.

Yes, there are plants with terrible conditions. Those work to produce low priced goods of low quality. And especially those who make the low-end goods for the local market. So if you want to support better working conditions, buy brand name products. Sure, if you buy a tablet PC for 100 USD, do you think that plant will adhere to labor standards? Or or $2 t-shirt?

So all those journalists should walk the streets in China and Vietnam, go through the production plants and look at the people. How they dress, the gadgets they have, how they spend their time and money once they get off work. The industrial plants have brought great prosperity to these countries. People from all walks of like have been able to pull themselves out of poverty through their hard work. Look at Africa and see what all those free donations are doing. Donations do not help, investments that create opportunities do.

[Fotoman]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

The pressures in China are more related to culture than from the workplace.

Well... the OP's screen name was all the reminding I needed about what country it is that Foxconn operates in and how much interest (i.e. none at all) that government has in bettering the working conditions of their citizens.

I'd pay more for an iPad than I did if it means a 40-hr work week for the people who make my iPad gives them enough money to live on and some hope for the future... I can afford it.

Yes, it is hard to definitively point at one factor as the cause for their or any other suicide cluster but considering their hours and conditions any reasonable person would have to wonder.

And in case you thought this was a new story here's a quote from 2006:

A large number of employees also appeared to be working an excessive number of hours, working a total of 35% over Apple's recommended hours per week maximum which is 60 hours. Some employees were also found to have been treated poorly, with some being "punished" by being forced to "stand at attention." From Apple's report:

During our interviews with employees, we explicitly asked every line worker whether they had ever been subjected to or witnessed objectionable disciplinary punishment. Two employees reported that they had been disciplined by being made to stand at attention. While we did not find this practice to be widespread, Apple has a zero tolerance policy for any instance, isolated or not, of any treatment of workers that could be interpreted as harsh.

Apple says that it will continue to work with Foxconn to rectify several areas of its facilities and improve employee working conditions. The company has also joined the Electronic Industry Code of Conduct (EICC) Implementation Group, which is an industry-wide group that maintains working standards. Apple says that so far it is pleased with the results of its investigation and will continue to monitor the situation at Foxconn heavily

http://www.dailytech.com/Apple+Relea...rticle3845.htm

Hey Steve, good "monitoring" there.

[Kolenka]

Originally Posted by Tamara

I think the world needs bakers, delivery men, etc. If we didn't have these people, how would you get a coffee and pastry at Starbucks? How would UPS deliver a package without deliverymen? How would roads/houses/cars/etc get built without tradespeople? Besides, not every kid is cut out to be an academic or has interest in being one.

That pastry you bought from Starbucks was hardly made by a baker. Even in the food industry, those making the money are the engineers designing better automated factories, not the cooks themselves. They've taken cooking and turned it into an engineering problem.

Deliveries are backed by engineers building tools helping to optimize the routes that drivers take to save gas, avoid traffic, and so on. Further automation could cut out the driver to some extent going forward, depending on how regulations and technology work out in the next few decades.

Yes, we need people in the service industry, can't get rid of that, and plenty of labor intensive industries that aren't going away anytime soon, but we (the US) are transforming into a service-oriented economy where automation or outsourcing drastically change the face of the types of labor jobs available here in the US. Demand for thinkers will continue to increase, while labor gets marginalized as more and more industry becomes automated.

My region will still hire you if you can do accounting, program a computer, or design a circuit board... but if you drive a truck, bake cakes, and so on, get back to the end of the line of everyone else trying to do the same.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Unfortunately most everything we buy these days--especially tech gadgets--involves near slave labor in factories in countries like China.

It's by no means exclusive to Apple. If one wants to do something about it, they pretty much need to not buy electronics or much of anything else.

Sorry, but this is ridiculous nonsense. Just buy a ticket right now and go to one of the factories that work for name branded products (I am sure the same applies to factories that work for Apple, even though I have never seen one of those). There is no more slave labor than in any factory in the West. Guess what, in a factory environment you can't goof off during work hours, you have to work at a steady pace with time lines imposed and quality has to be maintained. If not, how would the products be? Does a structured work environment make it slave labor?

People working in a productive and friendly looking environment for limited hours at wages that are several times higher than the local standards. And in spite of general labor shortages (yes, there are not enough workers in all of Asia now, workers can pick and choose, that tends to eliminate the bad apples all by itself) more people sign up to become "slaves".

Slave labor, Jesus. I think we all should stop just repeating those outrageously inaccurate accusations as if they were the word of God. Some bloggers/journalist use such words to get an easy audience. No factory in any country can be a kindergarten where people just gather to have fun in a pressure free environment.

[HansTWN]

If a large number of people at Foxconn actually do work over 60 hours a week, then Apple (and other electronics companies) do have the loosest standards in the business.

I remember a case at a Reebok factory a few years ago. After a check 5 people were found to have been working over 60 hours (only about 2 additional hours to pack some stuff for urgent delivery). The factory was fined $100,000. Since the factory's enforcement continued to be lax they were cut from the supplier list some time after that.

And things are the same for all the major, top level, garment and shoe brands. Strict adherence to labor laws, safety, working hours, is being enforced. That standard is a 40-hour week. The absolute limit for any worker is 60 hours, including overtime. Overtime costs a lot of money and the factories themselves see it in their interest to avoid it like the plague. The only reasons for overtime are a sudden surge in orders (and they cannot find new workers -- this is happening at the moment) or the need to rush an order.

[Tamara]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Sorry, but this is ridiculous nonsense. Just by a ticket right now and go to one of the factories that work for name branded products (I am sure the same applies to factories that work for Apple, even though I have never seen one of those). There is no more slave labor than in any factory in the West. Guess what, in a factory environment you can't goof off during work hours, you have to work at a steady pace with time lines imposed and quality has to be maintained. If not, how would the products be? Does a structured work environment make it slave labor?

People working in a productive and friendly looking environment for limited hours at wages that are several times higher than the local standards. And in spite of general labor shortages (yes, there are not enough workers in all of Asia now, workers can pick and choose, that tends to eliminate the bad apples all by itself) more people sign up to become "slaves".

Slave labor, Jesus. I think we all should stop just repeating those outrageously inaccurate accusations as if they were the word of God. Some bloggers/journalist use such words to get an easy audience. No factory in any country can be a kindergarten where people just gather to have fun in a pressure free environment.

I'm guessing that the people who are outraged about what working in a factory is like have never worked in a factory in the US or anywhere else. You're right about how you can't goof off playing farmville or participating in a forum or texting your friends when you work on a line. You're there to work and the line doesn't stop because your phone beeps or you want to check your email.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Fotoman

Well... the OP's screen name was all the reminding I needed about what country it is that Foxconn operates in and how much interest (i.e. none at all) that government has in bettering the working conditions of their citizens.

That means you haven't heard about the new, very strict labor laws that went into effect January 1st, 2008? And you haven't heard that while 10 years ago a worker bringing a complaint against a factory would have been told to just shut up and take it, now the vast majority of claims (and in quite a few cases even frivolous claims) that workers bring against factories regarding pay or working conditions are being decided in favor of the workers? I even see images that remind me of the US. Lawyers stalking workers at factory gates: "do you want to bring a complaint against your employer, I can make you lots of money".

Where do these "journalists" come up with all that stuff that you guys are reading and eagerly accept at face value?

[Solicitous]

Originally Posted by The Old Man

I question the $11?

Well it depends where the OP got his information from (no sources so hard to agree with him). I can see $11 being the cost of labour in the manufacturing process. If taking the OPs numbers for fact, the average worker in the factory earns 200 per month, say 10 hours a day at heck, 7 days a week. Total 280 hours for the month (70 hours * 4 weeks). At a rate of 200pm/280 hours comes to 70c roughly per hour. That means the $11 iPad manufacturing labor cost at 70c per hour works out at roughly 15 hours of human contact in the process.

But if $11 is claimed to be the entire cost....pfffft is all I can say.

[Fotoman]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Where do these "journalists" come up with all that stuff that you guys are reading and eagerly accept at face value?

Where? Oh, I don't know. Maybe places like this one:
http://factsanddetails.com/china.php...=9&subcatid=60
Or this one:
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/index.php

Or we could believe you instead

Foxconn is a Taiwanese company isn't it? Would the Taiwanese people work for the wages and working conditions that the mainland Chinese people work for? I doubt it, since Taiwan has moved on economically and wouldn't be able to provide 400,000 sufficiently desperate people.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Fotoman

Where? Oh, I don't know. Maybe places like this one:
http://factsanddetails.com/china.php...=9&subcatid=60
Or this one:
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/index.php

Or we could believe you instead

Foxconn is a Taiwanese company isn't it? Would the Taiwanese people work for the wages and working conditions that the mainland Chinese people work for? I doubt it, since Taiwan has moved on economically and wouldn't be able to provide 400,000 sufficiently desperate people.

Taiwan has very advance living standards, and thus wages are not competitive for such products, anymore. But Taiwan got there by slowly moving up, from being a shoe and textile production hub 40 years ago to a high-tech development center. Taiwan and Korea are the prime examples of how the industries have pulled these countries out of poverty. Both have no natural resources, it was just the hard work of the people the willingness of people to take risks and open factories, trading companies, etc.

And I invite you to take a trip with me. We will visit Foxconn on a Saturday (yes, when I am in China, I work Saturdays, too). When all the workers have gone home, the Taiwanese managers will still be in their offices, working. They, voluntarily, put in more than the 60 hours.

China has already gone half way. In another 10-20 years they will have caught up. Do you really think you can just snap your fingers and the laborers in the whole world will work for US wages? Then you wouldn't be looking at an extra 10 USD for your ipad. You would be looking at double the price, at least. Nobody could afford it and the companies would all go bust. Countries like China are making steady progress --- imposing 100% western standards would ruin them and you.

The workers in these factories are not being "exploited". They are getting a fair wage, very high by local standards. These wages go up every year. Working conditions and non-wage benefits are steadily increasing. If the factories had to pay western wages, nobody would be in China and the country would still be the way old Mao left it in 1979.

I am not saying everything is wonderful. There will be abuses, there will be cases of exploitation. But go to China, learn Chinese and talk the people. Almost all the people are very optimistic, they like where they are at, even compared to western countries. They have confidence where they are going. They don't need, they don't WANT your pity. By taking the current path forward, many of them will be better off than you in 15 - 20 years. And 50 million Chinese are probably better off than you right now, already.

The 400,000 people are not desperate. They are privileged. They have cell phones, good clothing, motor cycles, eat well, they can save money every month. Look at all the desperate people in the countries that have no industries. Africa comes to mind. The slums in US cities come to mind. Look at Greece. The government just borrows a lot of money, hands it all out to its citizens and then says "sorry, we can't pay back". I am sure that is a sustainable model.

There are many serious problems in China -- this is definitely not one of them.

Anyway, just my 2 cents worth. I have been in in and out of Asian factories almost daily in a number of countries since 1986. I have seen where we started off and I am seeing where we are now. I speak the local languages and I can get an unfiltered first hand view of the good and bad. How many among you have actually seen these countries? A journalist goes into a few factories at most and is looking for dirt. And I wanted to show you that it makes no sense at all to compare a current middle class American to a current middle class Chinese and decide "they are desperate". Believe who you want to, what does it matter to me? I have no agenda here. I am just contributing some real first hand experience. And "slave labor" or "400,000 desperate people" is so ridiculous and far off the mark that I had to speak up. Believe me, probably more than a 2 billion people on this earth can only dream of having a chance to be among those "400,000" desperate people at Foxconn.

[tiananmen]

Originally Posted by The Old Man

I question the $11?
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2362373,00.asp
PC Mag says $259.60.

a Taiwanese registered corporation headquartered in Tucheng, Taiwan. Foxconn is the largest manufacturer of electronics and computer components worldwide and mainly manufactures on contract to other companies.

Apple investigating Foxconn suicides
"The deaths have drawn intense media scrutiny despite the fact that nine suicides among a population of some 450,000 workers is not that surprising, statistically speaking. According to the World Health Organization's most recent statistics, China's suicide rate is 13.9 per 100,000 people."

~


Sorry, Sir, I may use a wrong word, the $ 11 was for assembling cost, not the material cost. I used "Manufacturing" in mistake~.