eBook vs paper book analogy

[AlexBell]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Besides, for all practical purposes Epub is DRM free, if you so desire.

And so is Mobipocket DRM free if you so desire and know how to.

Regards, Alex

[LDBoblo]

and RTF and txt, since we're all gunning for quality...

[WillAdams]

What DRM software is Apple selling? The OS doesn't phone home, iWork doesn't even include a serial # and songs from the Apple Music Store can be had in .mp3 format.

The only remotely locked-down platform is the iPhone, but I don't see what's so egregious about its limitations (all of which can be worked around).

William

[Dave W]

Authorizing 5 devices is not the same as lending a book. I want to have a book on a memory card, hand that card to a friend, they insert it into their reader, and read the book. When they are finished reading the book, they can return it to me or, if I no longer want it, pass it on to another person. I'm not sure what you mean by saying the ebooks have a more generous lending policy than pbooks? I can continue to loan out a pbook until it literally falls apart. As far as I know, that does not constitute a copyright infringement. With Sony's DRM, it seems I'm limited to 5 or 6 loans and, even then, each recipient would have to register their computer or reader before the book can be read. In my mind, that's pretty restrictive since there is no equivalent in pbooks. A library can loan a pbook and, when it is returned, loan it again until, as I said, it falls apart.

Dave W

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Dave W

my ebook purchase should be exactly like a paper book purchase. That is, when I am through with it, I can lend or give it to a friend to read. I can even sell it at a flea market or give it to my local library.

While I can appreciate your feelings, I disagree that an ebook should be "exactly" like paper, as ebooks have several advantages that you cannot get via paper. For example, I can back up my ebooks and store the data files in multiple locations. I can purchase an ebook, receive it immediately, and not pay shipping. I can get a sample chapter, at a minimal cost to the retailer and publisher, and peruse it at my leisure, etc etc.

By the way, do you expect your word processor to have the exact same strengths and weaknesses as a typewriter?

Originally Posted by Dave W

Why can't a publisher sell a card with a book or series of books burned into the flash memory?

Because it negates a major cost advantage of ebooks -- namely that you don't have to produce 10,000 physical objects with a plastic enclosure and a 4-color printed wrapper, distribute it to stores, hope someone actually buys it, and destroy it if no one purchases it. It's a major step backwards, akin to putting MP3's on a physical CD.

Besides, paper books are not going away any time soon. Even if ebooks completely dominate the market, I have no doubt that in the worst case scenario various print-on-demand options will be available for a long time to come. So I expect that for the duration of your lifetime, you will be able to give your friends paper books as gifts.

As to loaning and reselling ebooks, there already are some library ebook programs that loan out a limited number of copies for a limited time. Hopefully this will gain more traction as ebooks become more common, in which case it will partially restore the lost "loan a book" functionality.

On an individual level, adding the ability to loan or resell will raise the cost of the ebooks, since you would have to add another level of infrastructure to the process. It would also (as already mentioned above) involve a level of connectivity which some users would reject.

I've also found that selling books is in most (but not all) cases a very small advantage; you're lucky to get 10¢ on the dollar for a used book. Eliminating the used market is a boon for publishers (especially in education), but given how thin margins are in this industry, and how little you typically get for a used book, I find it hard to get worked up about it.

So while I do hope that the "loaning" functionality can be restored (via library access), I certainly do not and will not miss physical packaging, and am willing to live with the loss of reselling ebooks.

[Lemurion]

Here's what I want:

I want to be able to read my ebooks on whatever device I want whenever I want to read them. I don't want to have to swap cards, just buy the book once and read it when where and how I want.

Give me that and I'm happy.

[JasonB]

Originally Posted by susan_cassidy

The obvious reason is that an electronic copy is _another_ copy of the item, not necessarily the original item, as with a paper book.

I can't say that I agree with this. How is an electronic copy any different than a physical copy? With physical you either do another print run from the publisher, or you photocopy it. With electronic, you copy the file. The medium and technology is different - but the analogy and concept are identical.

Originally Posted by susan_cassidy

There is no practical way, other than DRM, to restrict you from making multiple copies of a digital file and giving them away, while keeping the original.

For physical books, there is no practical way of preventing the photocopy of a book at all (aside from the amount of time it might take to do so) - at least electronic books have DRM.

[JasonB]

Originally Posted by schmolch

Even if you could buy a ebook on a card it would make a lousy gift.

I know what you mean - but I, personally, would be quite happy to receive books on a memory card - and would consider it a great gift. I would think that a lot of people who are really into reading, and who already use an electronic reader, might feel the same way.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by JasonB

I know what you mean - but I, personally, would be quite happy to receive books on a memory card - and would consider it a great gift. I would think that a lot of people who are really into reading, and who already use an electronic reader, might feel the same way.

I wouldn't mind an ebook - or series - on a memory card. What I would mind is if I had to use that card and that card alone to read the book. I already have a card for ebooks - and I don't want to remove my existing collection for one new book.

[Penforhire]

Keep in mind that while you are not signing agreement for a license for each book you buy you are bound by terms and conditions you agreed to when you signed up at whatever site you use (e.g. Amazon Kindle or Sony Store). You can argue if those terms are ethical, or even legal, but you can't say they don't govern your every download.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

Keep in mind that while you are not signing agreement for a license for each book you buy you are bound by terms and conditions you agreed to when you signed up at whatever site you use (e.g. Amazon Kindle or Sony Store). You can argue if those terms are ethical, or even legal, but you can't say they don't govern your every download.

That's not true. A retailer can not put anything they want into a contract and then attempt to enforce it, even if the customer agrees. Companies put terms and conditions in agreements all the time that are legally invalid. For example, Amazon can not put terms in a license that force the customer to give up their rights or that override existing law. At least, not easily, and certainly not in something like an online click through agreement. You are definitely not governed by such terms, although some Companies would like you to believe that you are (which is why they still put them in).

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

I wouldn't mind an ebook - or series - on a memory card. What I would mind is if I had to use that card and that card alone to read the book. I already have a card for ebooks - and I don't want to remove my existing collection for one new book.

Exactly, that would negate all the advantages of an ebook. A lot of hassle with the cards and you can't download it, you still have to pay for postage. I really only see three ways out of this mess:

1.)No DRM but watermarking -- files can be traced back to the original source and he/she is responsible for any unauthorized copies.

2.)All books will be free and will be full of ads.

3.)It becomes widely accepted that paying for digital content is "the right thing to do".

[Dave W]

I don't understand the objection to swapping cards to read different books. I usually buy a book, read it all the way through (may take several weeks), throw it on the shelf and never look at it again. Even though my Sony can store lots of books and even group them by collections, I don't see a reason to do that. I'd be perfectly happy if my Sony only held one book. Of course, if I traveled frequently, I'l like it to hold about 3 books, but I'd erase them as soon as I was finished reading them. The equivalent of throwing the book on a shelf would be to store it on a memory card.

I've read in these forums about people who have purchased 100 or more books in a short period of time. They must either be speed readers or don't do anything in their lives but read. It is thoughts like these that has me saying things like, "ebooks should be just like paper books." I like the convenience of instant gratification in obtaining a new book. I'm really referring to how I use the book, not how I obtained it or stored it. Having said that, I am actually more comfortable reading my Sony than I am holding and reading a pbook. That is a big advantage to me.

Dave W

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

That's not true. A retailer can not put anything they want into a contract and then attempt to enforce it, even if the customer agrees. Companies put terms and conditions in agreements all the time that are legally invalid. For example, Amazon can not put terms in a license that force the customer to give up their rights or that override existing law. At least, not easily, and certainly not in something like an online click through agreement. You are definitely not governed by such terms, although some Companies would like you to believe that you are (which is why they still put them in).

FYI, read about yet another example of this today.

An individual was buying legal copies of software and then reselling them on Ebay. The software manufacturer sued him for violation of the license terms and copyright infringement.

US courts ruled in favor of the individual. Their finding was that as long as the terms did not make it clear that the company could take the software back, then a transfer of ownership occurred and the individual "bought" the software, regardless of the fact that the manufacturer's agreement stated it was only a license. Because the individual bought it, the right of first sale applies, and reselling it on Ebay is perfectly legal.

The court rejected the manufacturer's claims that it violated their terms and conditions, and that reselling was copyright infringement and encouraged piracy.

This is pretty consistent with other cases, where the courts have ruled that as long as the customer has an expectation that they can keep the product, then regardless of what the retailer's terms and conditions state, it is a sale not a license.

In other words, retailers are not allowed to deliberately try to confuse the customer. If it looks like a sale, then it is a sale. They can't claim in the fine print that you are only buying a license.