Ebooks on bittorrent! - Page 7

Alexander Turcic · 12-16-2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amalthia

Guys, when a user comes along and lets you know the system isn't user friendly it means that possibly a lot more users had the same problem but were too shy to speak up about it, or embarrased.

I agree 100%. There are lot's of things we could improve to improve usability and we intend to work on that! Of course, with everyone's input, it'd be a lot easier. Now, I like the way we are going with this, because before we were only discussing why things couldn't be moved to torrents; obviously not to everyone's liking. Now we talk about improving our built-in system, which is, I assume, in everyone's interest.

mtravellerh · 12-16-2008, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halo

I agree.

Are these ebooks not freely redistributable? Am I committing copyright infringement if I download a book from MobileRead and later decide to give a copy of the ebook to a friend? Please clarify as I think this is more important that the torrent issue.

Why would it matter to you that other people might wish to hoard books? With electronic information there is no scarcity of goods as with physical books. If someone decides to collect a copy of every legally redistributable ebook what disservice does that do to you? Please elaborate on what the core issue is that you object to.

Ad 1 These books , for sure, are free to be redistributed as you see fit as long as you do not charge any money for it.

Ad2 I am a hoarder myself, so that is not the point for me. My point is that a torrent would only make sense if there would be (anonymous) packages.

We really should be able to optimize our system of distribution without having to put the books in packages and massmail them. Maybe we should move away from the forum interface and create a new GUI?

Why not make a Wikilike interface with books sorted by author with their respective online works, books by format and books by genre with clickable menus or is that too complicated? I would be willing to fill in a SQL mask and infos when uploading if that would simplify the access.

tompe · 12-16-2008, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtravellerh

Ad 1 These books , for sure, are free to be redistributed as you see fit as long as you do not charge any money for it.

Why this restriction? If the books are in the public domain you can charge money for them. If they are not in the public domain or under a CC license the it is very hard to know what holds.

mtravellerh · 12-16-2008, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

Why this restriction? If the books are in the public domain you can charge money for them. If they are not in the public domain or under a CC license the it is very hard to know what holds.

I speak only for myself, but: Because we, the makers of these books distribute these books freely, there shouldn't be anybody who charges for them.

If this small condition really IS a problem, I am prepared to put all my books under CC.

I must say that I am quite disgusted by the fact that there seems to be a problem about this claim.

tompe · 12-16-2008, 03:54 PM

The question posed was:

Quote:

Are these ebooks not freely redistributable? Am I committing copyright infringement if I download a book from MobileRead and later decide to give a copy of the ebook to a friend? Please clarify as I think this is more important that the torrent issue.

If the books based on Gutenberg books and posted here are in the public domain then anybody can do anything with the book. The question is if they are in the public domain or not?

The CC books is of course not in the public domain. But what holds for the other books based on public domain texts?

DaleDe · 12-16-2008, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

The question posed was:

If the books based on Gutenberg books and posted here are in the public domain then anybody can do anything with the book. The question is if they are in the public domain or not?

The CC books is of course not in the public domain. But what holds for the other books based on public domain texts?

Does it only have to be based on a Gutenberg book? It the book has elements of Gutenberg but was extensively modified, fixed, images added, etc. then is the results still in the PD? Books that are translated have a whole new copyright. What about other books that are not language translated but format translated? I think we need to respect the wishes of those who did the work and the rules of the forum related to eBooks submitted here.

Dale

Patricia · 12-16-2008, 05:42 PM

Our books are from a variety of sources.
1. Some are texts uploaded by the authors themselves, or with the permission of the authors. They hold the copyright and it is up to them whether they give permission for personal downloads only. Any commercial use is forbidden without explicit permission.
2. Other books are CC, so are distributable only under the terms of the particular CC licence.
3. Yet others are public domain. Now it is obvious that people can do what they like (in a non-commercial way) with, say a PG text. And many public domain books are available for sale too. If uploaders have just done a spot of reformatting then there is no problem: the book remains in the public domain. If they have done extensive work on a text then there is a case for saying that they have made a derivative work.

But Tompe is conflating two different issues. Yes, you can publish your own version of Dickens or Jane Austen. They are in the Public Domain everywhere.

However, you cannot use a Project Gutenberg file as the source without complying with the Project Gutenberg regulations about commercial use. (Basically, they want a royalty for commercial use of their files and for the PG headers to be removed entirely.)

By parity of argument, our uploaders seem to have consented to sharing their work in a non-commercial way. But they have not given any permission for their work to be sold. I, for one, would be GROSSLY OFFENDED if my uploads were ripped off and sold. They are free gifts to forum members and visitors. And I feel dismayed by the mere suggestion that a gift be so corrupted.

tompe · 12-16-2008, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Does it only have to be based on a Gutenberg book? It the book has elements of Gutenberg but was extensively modified, fixed, images added, etc. then is the results still in the PD?

I am interested in what holds. And if some copyright goes to the person doing the book then I would like the license for that part to be stated in the book or in the post containing the book.

I think you need to modify the work a lot for it not to be in the public domain.

That got me curious about another thing. In OpenStretMap you cannot check the map you are tracing against a copyrighted map to avoid legal problems. So are all books here checked against non-copyrighted texts?

tompe · 12-16-2008, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patricia

However, you cannot use a Project Gutenberg file as the source without complying with the Project Gutenberg regulations about commercial use. (Basically, they want a royalty for commercial use of their files and for the PG headers to be removed entirely.)

I did not know about that. And I do not seem to remember that information in the books I have read from here and that i know is based on project Gutenberg texts. The information that it was based on a project Gutenberg text was removed.

It the book uploaded here is a derivative work I think it would be a good idea to state the conditions for redistribution in the upload.

Patricia · 12-16-2008, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

I did not know about that. And I do not seem to remember that information in the books I have read from here and that i know is based on project Gutenberg texts. The information that it was based on a project Gutenberg text was removed.

It is quite simple. Just read the project Gutenberg licence attached to each of their files, and follow the links.

tompe · 12-16-2008, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patricia

However, you cannot use a Project Gutenberg file as the source without complying with the Project Gutenberg regulations about commercial use. (Basically, they want a royalty for commercial use of their files and for the PG headers to be removed entirely.)

I looked at Project Gutenberg's web site and for public domain books there does not seem to be any commercial restrictions:

Quote:

These books are in the public domain in the United States and everybody — including Project Gutenberg and you — may read and distribute them. If you don't live in the United States you'll have to check the laws of the country you live in before downloading and distributing our ebooks.

A Project Gutenberg ebook is made out of two parts: the public domain book and the non public domain Project Gutenberg trademark and license. If you strip the Project Gutenberg license and all references to Project Gutenberg from the ebook, you are left with a public domain ebook. You can do anything you want with that.

tompe · 12-16-2008, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patricia

It is quite simple. Just read the project Gutenberg licence attached to each of their files, and follow the links.

I meant that the information was missing from the books here at MobileRead that are based on Gutenberg texts. Or maybe I just have not read any book that are based on a Gutenberg text with commercial restrictions.

tompe · 12-16-2008, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

I meant that the information was missing from the books here at MobileRead that are based on Gutenberg texts. Or maybe I just have not read any book that are based on a Gutenberg text with commercial restrictions.

And that probably is because you only have to pay royalties if you keep the project gutenberg name in the book and then sell it.

Elfwreck · 12-16-2008, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

I am interested in what holds. And if some copyright goes to the person doing the book then I would like the license for that part to be stated in the book or in the post containing the book.

I think you need to modify the work a lot for it not to be in the public domain.

The *text* is still in the public domain. The format is copyrighted by the person who creates the layout. That's how publishers can "copyright" the works of Shakespeare.

The books offered here are "free to download for the users of Mobileread forums." Some are public domain texts and open to any use. Some are creative commons and can't be sold w/o permission. Some are perhaps offered here specifically, and there's no permission to put them on other sites.

Nobody's going back through several thousand ebooks to figure out which ones are legal to sell, or archive elsewhere... the purpose of posting them is free ebook exchange. People who want to use them for commercial purposes will have to do their own legwork, sorting out who owns the various rights and contacting whoever's necessary.

Nate the great · 12-16-2008, 09:18 PM

A number of the people in this thread are wrong about copyright, but that's not important.

I do not see why this discussion has continued. Several of our more prolific uploaders do not want a torrent. Alex does not want a torrent. None of the moderators are in favor of a torrent. It's just not going to happen.

I want to propose a compromise. We already have a Mobipocket Download Guide, and download guide for IMP is on the to-do list. I think Alex might also be willing to create a similar guide for LRF. (This would probably be in HTML or EPUB.)

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12-16-2008, 05:42 PM	#97
Patricia Reader Posts: 11,504 Karma: 8720163 Join Date: May 2007 Location: South Wales, UK Device: Sony PRS-500, PRS-505, Asus EEEpc 4G	Our books are from a variety of sources. 1. Some are texts uploaded by the authors themselves, or with the permission of the authors. They hold the copyright and it is up to them whether they give permission for personal downloads only. Any commercial use is forbidden without explicit permission. 2. Other books are CC, so are distributable only under the terms of the particular CC licence. 3. Yet others are public domain. Now it is obvious that people can do what they like (in a non-commercial way) with, say a PG text. And many public domain books are available for sale too. If uploaders have just done a spot of reformatting then there is no problem: the book remains in the public domain. If they have done extensive work on a text then there is a case for saying that they have made a derivative work. But Tompe is conflating two different issues. Yes, you can publish your own version of Dickens or Jane Austen. They are in the Public Domain everywhere. However, you cannot use a Project Gutenberg file as the source without complying with the Project Gutenberg regulations about commercial use. (Basically, they want a royalty for commercial use of their files and for the PG headers to be removed entirely.) By parity of argument, our uploaders seem to have consented to sharing their work in a non-commercial way. But they have not given any permission for their work to be sold. I, for one, would be GROSSLY OFFENDED if my uploads were ripped off and sold. They are free gifts to forum members and visitors. And I feel dismayed by the mere suggestion that a gift be so corrupted.

12-16-2008, 09:18 PM	#105
Nate the great Sir Penguin of Edinburgh Posts: 12,375 Karma: 23555235 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: DC Metro area Device: Shake a stick plus 1	A number of the people in this thread are wrong about copyright, but that's not important. I do not see why this discussion has continued. Several of our more prolific uploaders do not want a torrent. Alex does not want a torrent. None of the moderators are in favor of a torrent. It's just not going to happen. I want to propose a compromise. We already have a Mobipocket Download Guide, and download guide for IMP is on the to-do list. I think Alex might also be willing to create a similar guide for LRF. (This would probably be in HTML or EPUB.)

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