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Old 06-18-2008, 04:08 PM   #16
ZenEngineer
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I get a lot of ebooks from Manybooks in .rtf. I tried reading .lrf files from them, but was never happy with the formatting. RTF works fine for what I've been reading. Images, links, and linked TOC is not that important to me.
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Old 06-18-2008, 07:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedPark View Post
Yup - good stuff. But I still don't know how to create my Hyperion (with line numbers) any way but via RTF.
FYI. I think it's totally cool you like RTF. And if you wish to keep on writing using RTF. That's great too. For me the biggest advantage RTF is that if I don't like your format they have the source to easily convert it to a desirable format and file type.

However if you asked me what I prefer. I think I would prefer LRF. It loads faster, the font rendering is optimized for LRF/LRX.

Also I've attached your RTF doc as an LRF. The transformation was easy. I just reopend the RTF and saved it as an HTML. Then used Clalibe to transform the document. Now that I think about it Calibe converts RTF to LRF.
Attached Files
File Type: lrf Hyperion A Fragment - Keats ; John_897.lrf (41.4 KB, 278 views)

Last edited by =X=; 06-18-2008 at 07:17 PM. Reason: Clarifiied
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Old 06-18-2008, 11:34 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by =X= View Post
I just reopend the RTF and saved it as an HTML. Then used Clalibe to transform the document. Now that I think about it Calibe converts RTF to LRF.
Hey, great suggestion. I will have to try experimenting with single and two step conversions some more. But as you can see, your conversion is better in many ways, but not so much in others. C'est la vie.

Here's to learning all we can about all the tools at our disposal. Maybe someday there will be even better tools. Then they will be so complicated they will be hard to use. <sigh>
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Old 06-19-2008, 11:16 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward View Post
That's why I have a good hex file editor. But I'm an old mainframer, used to twiddling bits.
I'm a professional bit-twiddler too (mostly C and assembly language programming) and reading RTF gives me a headache

Lets say I want this sentence centred on one line:

The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.

In HTML, that would be something similar to this:

<HTML>
<HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>
<p align=center style='text-align:center'>The <b>quick</b> <i>brown</i> fox jumps over the lazy dog.</p>
</DIV>
</BODY>
</HTML>

I just opened MS Word and typed the sentence in, then saved it as RTF. This is what I got out of Word:

{\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\uc1\deff0\stshfdbch11\stsh floch0\stshfhich0\stshfbi0\deflang1033\deflangfe10 41{\fonttbl{\f0\froman\fcharset0\fprq2{\*\panose 02020603050405020304}Times New Roman;}
{\f11\fmodern\fcharset128\fprq1{\*\panose 02020609040205080304}MS Mincho{\*\falt \'82\'6c\'82\'72 \'96\'be\'92\'a9};}{\f36\fmodern\fcharset128\fprq1 {\*\panose 02020609040205080304}@MS Mincho;}{\f37\froman\fcharset238\fprq2 Times New Roman CE;}
{\f38\froman\fcharset204\fprq2 Times New Roman Cyr;}{\f40\froman\fcharset161\fprq2 Times New Roman Greek;}{\f41\froman\fcharset162\fprq2 Times New Roman Tur;}{\f42\froman\fcharset177\fprq2 Times New Roman (Hebrew);}
{\f43\froman\fcharset178\fprq2 Times New Roman (Arabic);}{\f44\froman\fcharset186\fprq2 Times New Roman Baltic;}{\f45\froman\fcharset163\fprq2 Times New Roman (Vietnamese);}
{\f149\fmodern\fcharset0\fprq1 MS Mincho Western{\*\falt \'82\'6c\'82\'72 \'96\'be\'92\'a9};}{\f147\fmodern\fcharset238\fprq 1 MS Mincho CE{\*\falt \'82\'6c\'82\'72 \'96\'be\'92\'a9};}
{\f148\fmodern\fcharset204\fprq1 MS Mincho Cyr{\*\falt \'82\'6c\'82\'72 \'96\'be\'92\'a9};}{\f150\fmodern\fcharset161\fprq 1 MS Mincho Greek{\*\falt \'82\'6c\'82\'72 \'96\'be\'92\'a9};}
{\f151\fmodern\fcharset162\fprq1 MS Mincho Tur{\*\falt \'82\'6c\'82\'72 \'96\'be\'92\'a9};}{\f154\fmodern\fcharset186\fprq 1 MS Mincho Baltic{\*\falt \'82\'6c\'82\'72 \'96\'be\'92\'a9};}{\f399\fmodern\fcharset0\fprq1 @MS Mincho Western;}
{\f397\fmodern\fcharset238\fprq1 @MS Mincho CE;}{\f398\fmodern\fcharset204\fprq1 @MS Mincho Cyr;}{\f400\fmodern\fcharset161\fprq1 @MS Mincho Greek;}{\f401\fmodern\fcharset162\fprq1 @MS Mincho Tur;}{\f404\fmodern\fcharset186\fprq1 @MS Mincho Baltic;}}
{\colortbl;\red0\green0\blue0;\red0\green0\blue255 ;\red0\green255\blue255;\red0\green255\blue0;\red2 55\green0\blue255;\red255\green0\blue0;\red255\gre en255\blue0;\red255\green255\blue255;\red0\green0\ blue128;\red0\green128\blue128;\red0\green128\blue 0;
\red128\green0\blue128;\red128\green0\blue0;\red12 8\green128\blue0;\red128\green128\blue128;\red192\ green192\blue192;}{\stylesheet{\ql \li0\ri0\widctlpar\wrapdefault\aspalpha\aspnum\faa uto\adjustright\rin0\lin0\itap0
\fs24\lang1033\langfe1041\loch\f0\hich\af0\dbch\af 11\cgrid\langnp1033\langfenp1041 \snext0 Normal;}{\*\cs10 \additive \ssemihidden Default Paragraph Font;}{\*
\ts11\tsrowd\trftsWidthB3\trpaddl108\trpaddr108\tr paddfl3\trpaddft3\trpaddfb3\trpaddfr3\trcbpat1\trc fpat1\tblind0\tblindtype3\tscellwidthfts0\tsvertal t\tsbrdrt\tsbrdrl\tsbrdrb\tsbrdrr\tsbrdrdgl\tsbrdr dgr\tsbrdrh\tsbrdrv
\ql \li0\ri0\widctlpar\wrapdefault\aspalpha\aspnum\faa uto\adjustright\rin0\lin0\itap0 \fs20\lang1024\langfe1024\loch\f0\hich\af0\dbch\af 11\cgrid\langnp1024\langfenp1024 \snext11 \ssemihidden Normal Table;}}{\*\rsidtbl \rsid6255114\rsid11693386
\rsid13248871\rsid16736841}{\*\generator Microsoft Word 10.0.6843;}{\info{\title The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog}{\author vyin}{\operator vyin}{\creatim\yr2008\mo6\dy19\hr11\min2}{\revtim\ yr2008\mo6\dy19\hr11\min2}{\version1}{\edmins0}
{\nofpages1}{\nofwords6}{\nofchars39}{\*\company Espial Group Inc}{\nofcharsws44}{\vern16393}{\*\password 00000000}}{\*\xmlnstbl }\paperw12240\paperh15840\margl1800\margr1800\marg t1440\margb1440\gutter0
\widowctrl\ftnbj\aenddoc\grfdocevents0\noxlattoyen \expshrtn\noultrlspc\dntblnsbdb\nospaceforul\forms hade\horzdoc\dgmargin\dghspace180\dgvspace180\dgho rigin1701\dgvorigin1984\dghshow1\dgvshow1
\jexpand\viewkind4\viewscale100\pgbrdrhead\pgbrdrf oot\splytwnine\ftnlytwnine\htmautsp\nolnhtadjtbl\u seltbaln\alntblind\lytcalctblwd\lyttblrtgr\lnbrkru le\nobrkwrptbl\snaptogridincell\allowfieldendsel\w rppunct\asianbrkrule\rsidroot6255114 \fet0
{\*\wgrffmtfilter 013f}\sectd \linex0\endnhere\sectlinegrid360\sectdefaultcl\sft nbj {\*\pnseclvl1\pnucrm\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang {\pntxta .}}{\*\pnseclvl2\pnucltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnha ng {\pntxta .}}{\*\pnseclvl3\pndec\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang
{\pntxta .}}{\*\pnseclvl4\pnlcltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnha ng {\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl5\pndec\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang {\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl6\pnlcltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnha ng {\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl7
\pnlcrm\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang {\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl8\pnlcltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnha ng {\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl9\pnlcrm\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhan g {\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}\pard\plain
\qc \li0\ri0\widctlpar\wrapdefault\aspalpha\aspnum\faa uto\adjustright\rin0\lin0\itap0\pararsid11693386 \fs24\lang1033\langfe1041\loch\af0\hich\af0\dbch\a f11\cgrid\langnp1033\langfenp1041 {\insrsid11693386 \hich\af0\dbch\af11\loch\f0 The }{
\b\insrsid11693386\charrsid11693386 \hich\af0\dbch\af11\loch\f0 quick}{\insrsid11693386 \hich\af0\dbch\af11\loch\f0 }{\i\insrsid11693386\charrsid11693386 \hich\af0\dbch\af11\loch\f0 brown}{\insrsid11693386 \hich\af0\dbch\af11\loch\f0
fox jumps over the lazy dog.}{\insrsid16736841
\par }}


Now maybe there are programs that produce easier to understand RTF, but it looks to me like HTML is far, far easier to understand for most people!

On the other hand, I find that most of the editors for RTF (ie: word processors) are much easier to format documents with than most HTML editors, which are optimized to edit "pages" instead of "books".
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Old 06-19-2008, 12:28 PM   #20
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Ha! LOL!! This is getting to be an amusing thread. You are partly right in that RTF is more cryptic and usually more verbose. And you have shown clearly that RTF is not a good authorizing language, rather an intermediate code.

But part of it is just the way MS-Word does things. For a reverse look at things, here is the really operative bit of the RTF:

{\insrsid11693386 \hich\af0\dbch\af11\loch\f0 The }
{\b\insrsid11693386\charrsid11693386 \hich\af0\dbch\af11\loch\f0 quick}
{\insrsid11693386 \hich\af0\dbch\af11\loch\f0 }{\i\insrsid11693386\charrsid11693386 \hich\af0\dbch\af11\loch\f0 brown}{\insrsid11693386 \hich\af0\dbch\af11\loch\f0
fox jumps over the lazy dog.}

Whereas when I have MS-Word generate the HTML, this is what I get:
(I don't know how to turn off the auto smiles)

<html xmlns="urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice"
xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:word"
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
<meta name=ProgId content=Word.Document>
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 9">
<meta name=Originator content="Microsoft Word 9">
<link rel=File-List
href="./The%20quick%20brown%20fox%20jumps%20over%20the%20l azy%20dog_files/filelist.xml">
<title>The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog</title>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<oocumentProperties>
<o:Author>Ted C. Park</o:Author>
<o:LastAuthor>Ted C. Park</o:LastAuthor>
<o:Revision>1</o:Revision>
<o:TotalTime>1</o:TotalTime>
<o:Created>2008-06-19T15:42:00Z</o:Created>
<o:LastSaved>2008-06-19T15:43:00Z</o:LastSaved>
<o:Pages>1</o:Pages>
<o:Company>Personal</o:Company>
<o:Lines>1</o:Lines>
<o:Paragraphs>1</o:Paragraphs>
<o:Version>9.6926</o:Version>
</oocumentProperties>
</xml><![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang=EN-US style='tab-interval:.5in'>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>The <b>quick</b> <i>brown</i>
fox jumps over the lazy dog.<o></o></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><![if !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o></o></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
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Old 06-19-2008, 01:50 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedPark View Post
(I don't know how to turn off the auto smiles)
When entering a message, below the message box, there are 'Additional Options'. If you check 'Disable smilies in text' then the smiles will not be activated.

However, then all smiles are lost. As an alternative, just put a space after the colon of the text that "looks" like a smiley! : )

Last edited by nrapallo; 06-19-2008 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 06-19-2008, 02:10 PM   #22
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The first big block of RTF of the generic definitions and defaults. You don't normally edit them in hex. When you get into the body of the text, the codes are fewer and more meaningful. For me, I had no books or training on HTML, and I didn't have MS Word or other commercial word procesor on my work machine. I did have Wordpad and a hex editor. So I taught myself basic RTF by playing with the control codes in the text. This worked for me. (By the by, if you use wordpad on an ME machine, there's a lot less RTF code in the output (works just as well).....)
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Old 06-19-2008, 03:08 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radius View Post
I'm a professional bit-twiddler too (mostly C and assembly language programming) and reading RTF gives me a headache

Lets say I want this sentence centred on one line:

The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
Please do not blame rtf format for slopy programming of modern editors.

Try creating html file in MSWord and have a look at the resulting mess.

You can make hand-crafted rtf file JUST as nice as a well formated html file.
Look:
::::::::::::::::: start of rtf file :::::::::::::::::::::
{\rtf1\ansi
\deff6
{\fonttbl
{\f6\fswiss\fcharset0 Helvetica;}
}
{\info
}
\paperw12240\paperh15840\margl1800\margr1800\margt 1440\margb1440
\ftnbj\aenddoc\ftnrstcont\aftnrstcont\ftnnar\aftnn rlc
\sectd
\pard\fi-1\li1\ri1\qc\plain\f6\fs20
The \b quick\b0 \i brown\i0 fox jumped over the lazy dog.\par
}
::::::::::::::::: end of rtf file :::::::::::::::::::::

That is it.

I am sure that I could delete a few more tags and still keep a working rtf file.

You can make rtf file for your Reader using a few simple macros.
That is what I do.
*MY* rtf files are typically 50% smaller than equivalent file created by OpenOffice.org or MSWord

Take first eleven lines from my example. This is equivalent to the html file header.
line with "The quick ..." is the body
and think of the last line with } as if it was </body>

\b is equivalent to the <b>
\b0 is equivalent to the </b>
\i is equivalent to the <i>
\i0 is equivalent to the </i>
\par is the same thing as <p>

THAT IS IT.

on Unix use Ted word processor to produce a very clean, standard compliant rtf file.
On windows make an example using Write.

Last edited by kacir; 06-19-2008 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 06-19-2008, 09:28 PM   #24
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Actually wordpad does a much more compact RTF than Word does. The only problem is that wordpad does not support metadata. Wordpad is about as good as handcrafted.
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Old 06-20-2008, 02:40 PM   #25
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Wow, that's a huge difference!

I've played around a bit with the output of Wordpad now and its RTF generation is much cleaner than Word's is. Still harder to understand than HTML but livable. Unfortunately, Wordpad has awful editing features.

Abiword looks reasonable.

But in the long run, I still believe HTML derivatives will have a longer shelf life and more tools to work on them...
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Old 07-01-2008, 02:20 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
The big limitations of RTF on the Sony are lack of hyperlinks, lack of picture support, and no table of contents. Those are all pretty significant for books of any real size.
I'm curious, since I mostly use RTF how exactly do hyperlinks work with LRF? I've seen a few but I wasn't aware there was a way to highlight the hyperlink and actually use it like a link?
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Old 07-01-2008, 04:53 PM   #27
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In Book Designer you can use the 'Notes and Links' feature to create hyperlinks very easily. It's described in HarryT's Book Designer tutorial.
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Old 07-01-2008, 05:10 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Amothea View Post
I'm curious, since I mostly use RTF how exactly do hyperlinks work with LRF? I've seen a few but I wasn't aware there was a way to highlight the hyperlink and actually use it like a link?
You navigate through the links with the navigate buttons on the PRS-505. To activate the link depress the <ENTER> button in the center of the navigation button
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Old 07-01-2008, 07:18 PM   #29
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To be even more specific, you use Up and Down buttons to select a link. Left and Right navigate the history, like a browser's Back and Forward buttons.
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Old 07-02-2008, 02:13 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igorsk View Post
To be even more specific, you use Up and Down buttons to select a link. Left and Right navigate the history, like a browser's Back and Forward buttons.
Okay this makes sense. I was wondering what those other arrows were for and since I rarely read novels with TOC I had no clue...

thanks for the help!
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