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Old 10-11-2013, 09:23 PM   #841
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Speaking as a user, I find it tedious to explain why I want something to only be told "that's not what you really want, trust me".
Let's see. I can choose to ignore one guy who's not clear about what would satisfy him, or I can spend a lot of time and effort trying to guess at what he wants and probably annoy/disappoint him anyway.

What looks like the reasonable option here? I'm going with the first choice, which gives me time to fix bugs or implement features that have clearer conditions.
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Old 10-12-2013, 03:35 AM   #842
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Speaking as a user, I find it tedious to explain why I want something to only be told "that's not what you really want, trust me".
I wasn't asking in order to tell you it's not what you really want, I was asking because I genuinely wasn't clear.
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Old 10-12-2013, 05:47 AM   #843
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Let's see. I can choose to ignore one guy who's not clear about what would satisfy him, or I can spend a lot of time and effort trying to guess at what he wants and probably annoy/disappoint him anyway.

What looks like the reasonable option here? I'm going with the first choice, which gives me time to fix bugs or implement features that have clearer conditions.
I would expect no less. I'm hoping an exceptional "programmer" will run the idea.
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Old 10-12-2013, 05:48 AM   #844
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I wasn't asking in order to tell you it's not what you really want, I was asking because I genuinely wasn't clear.
Sorry about that.
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Old 10-12-2013, 09:22 AM   #845
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I would expect no less. I'm hoping an exceptional "programmer" will run the idea.
Hey, hope all you want. I'm just explaining why you shouldn't hold your breath waiting for it to happen. You've asked for a vague feature, denied that the technical complexities underpinning that feature matter (and attempted to cast doubt on whether they even exist), and you refuse to clarify your preferences when specifically asked. That's a perfect recipe for not getting what you want.

I make my living as a programmer, but not for Kobo. If my boss sent me the kind of feature request you've posted, I'd send it right back with the same sort of feedback you've already gotten, insisting that he either drop the request or clarify it into something that can actually be written. If he refused, I would have no choice but to tell him that it can't be done.
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Old 10-13-2013, 01:37 AM   #846
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That sounds nice.

On the Nook, you can change the font, margins ... (I stopped there), and the page numbers stayed the same.
Likely since the Nook uses the Adobe synthetic page numbers. They do not change with screen/font/margins. You may have noticed that the page number does not change with every page.

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Different editions and hardcover/paperback page number differences must drive you crazy.
No problem for me since I rarely use page numbers other than locating a chapter in a deadtree book. On my ereader, if I'm looking for a item, I mostly use search, otherwise I just tap on the chapter item in the TOC listing.

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P.S. I would still appreciate a response to this question. I have a feeling I may be mis-remembering this:
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As an aside, I thought there was some way to reference "pbook pages" in an epub (I thought the Nook was implementing this, or am I thinking of the Kindle)?
The only method I'm familiar with for doing this in epubs was the Adobe page-map non-standard extension. You needed to use Adobe's InDesign program to create the ebook or spend a lot of time creating the entries by hand. The MobileRead wiki has an entry about page-map ( https://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/Adob...tions#Page-map and other Adobe extensions.

The only time I saw page-map used in the real world was a couple of textbooks that had downloadable ebook versions (at an extra cost, of course). For one of the ebooks, it turned out the page numbers did not quite match up to the deadtree book which had been reset and reprinted by the Canadian distributor.

Regards,
David
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Old 10-13-2013, 02:53 AM   #847
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The only method I'm familiar with for doing this in epubs was the Adobe page-map non-standard extension. You needed to use Adobe's InDesign program to create the ebook or spend a lot of time creating the entries by hand. The MobileRead wiki has an entry about page-map ( https://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/Adob...tions#Page-map and other Adobe extensions.
In theory, there's also pageList, but last I heard, that has the minor problem of not being implemented by any actual software...
Last edited by Rev. Bob; 10-13-2013 at 02:55 AM.
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Old 10-13-2013, 08:55 PM   #848
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Hi, all. I haven't read through all the pages of the thread, but I wonder if someone has already requested a fix to the large, empty footer issue, yet?


(Taken from this post)

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What's on the next page? A chapter heading? A picture? Something else? Why the space isn't used depends on the contents of the book and the formatting. Or you might have hit a well known bug.
It was a 4 line paragraph. This kind of gap is consistent tho.
(Taken from this post)

I don't yet own a Kobo (and will likely stick with my old Nook until this is fixed) so I can't provide many details, but it seems like there is an issue with reflowing paragraphs that cross page boundaries. (Someone once referred to this as "widows" and "orphans" which I didn't understand).

Thanks!
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Old 10-13-2013, 10:24 PM   #849
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I don't yet own a Kobo (and will likely stick with my old Nook until this is fixed) so I can't provide many details, but it seems like there is an issue with reflowing paragraphs that cross page boundaries. (Someone once referred to this as "widows" and "orphans" which I didn't understand).
Widows and orphans, in this context, refer to the number of lines that can't be left alone at the top (widows) or bottom (orphans) of a screen. Those values normally default to 2, meaning that if you've got room for three lines at the end of a screen, but they belong to a paragraph that's only four lines long, you can't display all three of those lines - because that leaves only one line for the top of the next page, and one is less than two, so that's forbidden.

One way to deal with that scenario is to move the whole paragraph to the next page, leaving a three-line gap at the end of the current one. A better way is to split the paragraph one line early, putting two lines at the end of one page, then the other two at the top of the next. Neither way is "wrong," though. To further complicate things, remember that you also have to factor in any normal gap that might appear between paragraphs. If the paragraph's a quotation, the extra side margins also affect things.

Some people deal with that problem by setting both values to 0, but there's a reason for the default; it usually helps the (human) reader maintain a certain flow by keeping paragraphs more intact.
Last edited by Rev. Bob; 10-13-2013 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 10-14-2013, 06:04 AM   #850
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Thanks for the explanation!

Can the value be changed on the Kobo, or is it controlled in the book's epub config setting somewhere?
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Old 10-14-2013, 06:11 AM   #851
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Thanks for the explanation!

Can the value be changed on the Kobo, or is it controlled in the book's epub config setting somewhere?
For epubs, it can't be changed on the device. It is in the CSS for the book and that needs to be changed. In general, adding "widows:0" and "orphans:0" to the body style in the stylesheet will do it. If you use calibre, the driver supports adding some CSS to the stylesheets in the epubs.

For kepubs, there is a stylesheet on the device that gets loaded for each book. This is "kepub-book.css" and is in ".kobo/kepub" on the device.
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Old 10-15-2013, 08:21 AM   #852
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Davidfor, thanks, I'll give it a try when I purchase a Kobo.

Still, given the amazing array of flexibility and poweruser settings available on the Kobo, along with the volume of complaints regarding the wasted white space (firmware hacks to remove whitespace), I still think that Kobo should add this setting to the firmware.

(My old Nook STR hasn't needed any settings to handle widows/orphans without wasting white space)
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:18 PM   #853
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Davidfor, thanks, I'll give it a try when I purchase a Kobo.

Still, given the amazing array of flexibility and poweruser settings available on the Kobo, along with the volume of complaints regarding the wasted white space (firmware hacks to remove whitespace), I still think that Kobo should add this setting to the firmware.

(My old Nook STR hasn't needed any settings to handle widows/orphans without wasting white space)
Quite of a few of the complaints about how Kobo's ereaders display pages is due to Kobo (and Adobe) attempting to follow the epub standard styles embedded in the epubs by the publisher. Quite a few people feel that since most publishers seem to want to emulate a printed page with the wide margins on all four sides, Kobo should not follow the ebook stylesheet, instead using a default stylesheet that minimizes margins, headers, footers, etc to put the maximum text on each page. I've read ebooks on other ereaders that have a built-in stylesheet that is used instead of the ebook's stylesheet and I found that even more annoying. At least, with Kobo, I can edit the epub and make changes at lot more easily than a stylesheet embedded in the firmware.

As an example in quite a few ebooks, the ebook itself specifies wide right and left margins. Kobo's margin slider can increase the margins but not reduce them below the margins specified in the ebook. Another ebook reader I used used the same margins for all content which meant in-line content (poem, text message, code, etc.) that was intended to be indented was displayed flush with the remainder of content unless you indented it using non-breaking spaces.

My personal answer has been to edit virtually all the ebooks I read that are not DRM protected to use a stylesheet that makes the ebook display the way I prefer. This is not likely to be a popular technique with the vast majority of people owning Kobos but it works for me.

Regards,
David
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Old 10-24-2013, 06:59 AM   #854
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My personal opinion is that publishers should wise up and make ebooks (epub files) look the best on ereaders, and also make the ebooks as easy to use as possible. Whoever thought of the industry standard to make digital books emulate (look as identical as possible to) paper books is just plain wrong. I think the onus should lie with the publishers and less with the ereader companies.

Car makers don't try to emulate real horse rides by making vehicles drive as bumpy as possible. Don't limit the new technology by focussing on the old technology with all of its good and bad features. Digital books are digital books, so just make them the best book they can be.

I used to believe that filling up all the screen space was the way to go for my ebooks, but having used a kobo for over two years I've changed my mind. Now, I prefer a small margin around the edge of my screen. But since I really hate some ebook formats that provide large margins, I use Calibre and Sigil to make the margins the way I prefer them to be.

Yes, I want my Kobo to use the technology to provide me with the best reading experience, but I really wish the publishers would try to sell me books using the best formatting to let me have better reading experiences without messing around with the files myself.

Sorry for the long-ish rant.
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Old 10-24-2013, 06:32 PM   #855
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My personal opinion is that publishers should wise up and make ebooks (epub files) look the best on ereaders, and also make the ebooks as easy to use as possible. Whoever thought of the industry standard to make digital books emulate (look as identical as possible to) paper books is just plain wrong. I think the onus should lie with the publishers and less with the ereader companies.

Car makers don't try to emulate real horse rides by making vehicles drive as bumpy as possible. Don't limit the new technology by focussing on the old technology with all of its good and bad features. Digital books are digital books, so just make them the best book they can be.

I used to believe that filling up all the screen space was the way to go for my ebooks, but having used a kobo for over two years I've changed my mind. Now, I prefer a small margin around the edge of my screen. But since I really hate some ebook formats that provide large margins, I use Calibre and Sigil to make the margins the way I prefer them to be.

Yes, I want my Kobo to use the technology to provide me with the best reading experience, but I really wish the publishers would try to sell me books using the best formatting to let me have better reading experiences without messing around with the files myself.

Sorry for the long-ish rant.
I find that most books are just fine on most ereaders, Kobo being the exception. A few are ugly from the get go, with the large margins etc. But the Sony crop usually handles these.

I don't think that a publisher intentionally makes the book ugly. I also have a hard time believing that the way you read the book is more important to them then selling the book. AFAIK Kobo is the only one who thinks otherwise.

Helen
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