Could commercial Sigil be accepted?

eping · 04-09-2012, 10:17 AM

Seeing the contrast of users count between Calibre and Sigil, and the complaints and debates here, I really worried about the future of Sigil.

I am thinking if Sigil should start as a commercial software instead of a freeware as Calibre. The reason is that Sigil is for a minor user groups but professional than common users like those of Calibre.
Comparing to readers who need a converter, Sigil or an ebook composer users generally,
1 are more professional.
2 need more professional functions, better performance and extreme robustness.
3 use Sigil much more frequently than a converter.

But comparing to Calibre, Sigil is more difficult to develop and improve. Such as the Book view is a small version of MS Word, and Code view is more than an text editor. As least, a Sigil is no less than a Dreamweaver.
So, depending on a few/or even one or two genius on theri spare time is not enough for such a huge work.

So I'm thinking if commercial way can make Sigil better and better, at least, a steady revenue can support its development and improvement.

In my personal opinion, free mode is not fit for Sigil.
Here, I hope all who concern Sigil would express your opinions, no matter pro or cons.
Thanks.

Doitsu · 04-09-2012, 12:12 PM

IMHO, the current maintainer user_none does a great job adding new features to Sigil all the time and quickly addresses critical bugs. While there are some minor bugs and quirks, Sigil is easily on par with commercial programs and most people who complain about robustness issues or lack of user friendliness often simply lack the necessary skills to properly use Sigil, and many of them would probably be better off using other programs.
BTW, since Sigil is CC BY-SA 3.0 licensed, theoretically anybody could grab the code and create a commercial derivative under a different name as long as they abide by the Creative Commons rules.

weatherwax · 04-09-2012, 12:12 PM

Are you part of the Sigil team?
As a non-professional who uses Sigil a lot, I'm fine with it's functionalities and glad that it is free. I use it as an epub editor.
There seem to be quite a few people who use Sigil for their personal needs only, it's not too complicated if you know some html and css are are not afraid to work in code view.

eping · 04-09-2012, 01:07 PM

What shocked me most is that I saw nearly 1000 viewers on calibre while no more than 10 viewers on Sigil in this forum at the same time.
I hope there should be 100 viewers at least.

Btw, I wish I could take part in development of Sigil, but too bad, I know nothing about C++, the language Sigil uses.

cybmole · 04-09-2012, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weatherwax

Are you part of the Sigil team?
As a non-professional who uses Sigil a lot, I'm fine with it's functionalities and glad that it is free. I use it as an epub editor.
There seem to be quite a few people who use Sigil for their personal needs only, it's not too complicated if you know some html and css are are not afraid to work in code view.

i second that. calibre is a great program also- i hope they both remain open source & free.

DiapDealer · 04-09-2012, 01:20 PM

I'm fairly certain remaining free and open-source was one of the conditions (or at least the intention) when the original creator/maintainer passed the torch to user_none. He strikes me as someone who would honor that intention.

theducks · 04-09-2012, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eping

What shocked me most is that I saw nearly 1000 viewers on calibre while no more than 10 viewers on Sigil in this forum at the same time.
I hope there should be 100 viewers at least.

Btw, I wish I could take part in development of Sigil, but too bad, I know nothing about C++, the language Sigil uses.

Those are a different classes of user.

Most of those want a PHD solution

While Sigil users are willing to do some work

or willing to switch to CV and do some heavy lifting

if needed.

Shack70 · 04-09-2012, 01:48 PM

I never used Sigil as I thought it was more of editor for e-books than a catalog program. Calibre is a catalog program with tons of nice features. Not sure how commercializing would help either one at this point

mmat1 · 04-09-2012, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eping

So I'm thinking if commercial way can make Sigil better and better, at least, a steady revenue can support its development and improvement.

I'm a bit puzzles why you think that this will make things better.

Free developers aren't able to handle huge projects ? What's this Linux, Firefox etc. etc. etc. I heard recently about ???

Free developers aren't able to deliver quality software ?? I think, sometimes the opposite is the case. If money gets short, companies often forced to throw their stuff on the market - ready or not - to get some cash. Free developers are free to deliver 3 stability and bugfix releases in sequence, as they don't have to pay their rent with the money they get for their software...
For me there isn't a causal connection. If the developer does a good job, software will be fine, otherwise trash. Doing a good job isn't always a question of money.

user_none · 04-09-2012, 07:40 PM

So much to clarify...

First, thank you to eping for thinking and wanting to discuss ways to make Sigil better. I want to say specifically to eping even if people are resistant or dislike an idea that doesn't mean it wasn't worth discussing.

I want to clarify a few things. Commercial doesn't automatically mean non-free. It also doesn't automatically mean closed source. Commercialization only means shifting focus to generate profit. The goal of profit in this case would be for developers to work on Sigil full time and being able to move it forward and response to issues faster.

Currently I have no plans of commercialization simply because it doesn't fit into what I want to do with Sigil. I also don't see a viable option at this time. Commercialization isn't a bad or evil thing. Pretty much everyone here has or does work for a commercial enterprise of some sort. It's how the economy works.

Also, just so everyone is clear. Sigil is not, will not, and I have no intention of making Sigil closed source. Any future commercialization would not included closing Sigil's code.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doitsu

BTW, since Sigil is CC BY-SA 3.0 licensed...

Only Sigil's documentation is is CC licensed. The Sigil source code is GPLv3 licensed. The ability to create a derivative under a different name is still permissible under the GPL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by weatherwax

Are you part of the Sigil team?

eping is not but it doesn't matter as he was trying to open discussion on the topic and gauge community (as well as developer) interest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eping

What shocked me most is that I saw nearly 1000 viewers on calibre while no more than 10 viewers on Sigil in this forum at the same time.

calibre is a more general application. calibre is to iTunes as Sigil is to ProTools. Calibre by what it is will have a wider audience (ebook consumers) while Sigil's is by it's nature smaller (ebook producers).

Quote:

Originally Posted by eping

Btw, I wish I could take part in development of Sigil, but too bad, I know nothing about C++, the language Sigil uses.

This has been an issue for quite some time. Valloric even stated at one time that if he could go back in time and start over he would have used a different language. C++ is such a large barrier to entry that it has caused fewer people to contribute and it also means people who take the leap have to invest a lot more time getting up to speed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I'm fairly certain remaining free and open-source was one of the conditions (or at least the intention) when the original creator/maintainer passed the torch to user_none. He strikes me as someone who would honor that intention.

One of the considerations when I volunteered to take over was that Sigil was GPLv3 so it cannot be closed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmat1

I'm a bit puzzles why you think that this will make things better.

I only work on Sigil in my spare time. Being a commercial project the intention would be myself as well as others could work on it full time. A few hours a week vs 40 would make big difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmat1

Free developers aren't able to handle huge projects ? What's this Linux, Firefox etc. etc. etc. I heard recently about ???

Commercial projects. The largest Linux contributors are corporations. Firefox is funded by the Mozilla corporation. In both cases companies pay people to develop these full time as their day job. That doesn't mean they don't allow outside contributions but for all intents and purposes these are commercial projects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmat1

Free developers aren't able to deliver quality software ??

I don't think that was implied.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmat1

If the developer does a good job, software will be fine, otherwise trash. Doing a good job isn't always a question of money.

The quality of the software doesn't always mean it will succeed. If there isn't a market it doesn't matter how well designed it is. Also, history has shown the best product doesn't always win. Betamax vs VHS anyone?

mrmikel · 04-10-2012, 07:19 AM

I think the difference between Calibre and Sigil is the difference between the Detroit car manufacturers and a performance shop. Both are useful and both needed and they are complementary.

The performance shop will never have as many customers, but those it has really are loyal and need it. And what they produce is finer tuned and more sophisticated, but it does take knowledge.

When Sigil users look under the hood at what Calibre produces, they are likely to say," Yeah it runs, but why all these extra hoses??" (grin)

Rob Lister · 04-10-2012, 07:47 AM

If ever there was a software project that could stand on its on as a commercial and profitable endeavor, it is Sigil. Its operation and functionality are iceberg-lettuce crisp; it is an absolute joy to use. I kinda think it is a shame that its developers will not realize a direct monetary gain for their work.

kiwidude · 04-10-2012, 11:25 AM

@Rob - the developers can be remunerated via donations if people feel so motivated.

Though I don't share your opinion about "iceberge lettuce crisp" and "joy to use" though. It certainly could be one day - but it isn't there yet.

I want to love it, I really do - as a concept it is brilliant and as someone who just wants a quick and easy way to cleanup books/modify styles and do some splits/merging it is perfect for the task to launch from calibre.

However it has never ever had the slightest stability due to the horrific list of bugs. I don't mean just the simpler usability issues - I mean the soul destroying stuff where content just disappears/reverts/reappears/jumps around at apparent random during merge/view change or find operations. Resulting in much frustration and all too often having to start all over again.

I applaud user_none and meme for their efforts at stomping on these where they can and rewriting or polishing some of the more obvious rough edges. But even they are constrained by issues with Qt, getting to grips with a legacy codebase from Valloric and as always with time as to how much they can "fix".

Time will tell - I look forward to seeing how the 0.6 releases work and whether the find/replace is finally 100% rock solid etc. And if/when the extensibility API happens then it could get really interesting, as other developers (possibly me too) might look to offer plugin contributions to scratch various itches that the Sigil devs don't see as a priority.

mmat1 · 04-11-2012, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwidude

However it has never ever had the slightest stability due to the horrific list of bugs. I don't mean just the simpler usability issues - I mean the soul destroying stuff where content just disappears/reverts/reappears/jumps around at apparent random during merge/view change or find operations. Resulting in much frustration and all too often having to start all over again.

The description you give us here would better match to a virus than to Sigil. Yes, it has it's issues, but a "soul destroying stuff" ?

No !

kiwidude · 04-11-2012, 06:03 AM

No virus, just Sigil bugs. Some of which I know meme worked on during the 0.5.x releases, but others are caused by Qt as far as I have been told.

And if you spend half an hour to an hour carefully crafting many regexes over and over and stepping through your document multiple times to clean it up to then have yet another bug trash your work... over and over again, document after document, month after month, release after release - yes to me that is soul destroying stuff.

When it works it is absolutely brilliant, but the sheer number of hours I have lost due to when it goes badly wrong makes me cringe.

04-09-2012, 10:17 AM	#1
eping ePub Maker Posts: 120 Karma: 16 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Mordor Device: iPad,Kindle 3, Nook 2	Could commercial Sigil be accepted? Seeing the contrast of users count between Calibre and Sigil, and the complaints and debates here, I really worried about the future of Sigil. I am thinking if Sigil should start as a commercial software instead of a freeware as Calibre. The reason is that Sigil is for a minor user groups but professional than common users like those of Calibre. Comparing to readers who need a converter, Sigil or an ebook composer users generally, 1 are more professional. 2 need more professional functions, better performance and extreme robustness. 3 use Sigil much more frequently than a converter. But comparing to Calibre, Sigil is more difficult to develop and improve. Such as the Book view is a small version of MS Word, and Code view is more than an text editor. As least, a Sigil is no less than a Dreamweaver. So, depending on a few/or even one or two genius on theri spare time is not enough for such a huge work. So I'm thinking if commercial way can make Sigil better and better, at least, a steady revenue can support its development and improvement. In my personal opinion, free mode is not fit for Sigil. Here, I hope all who concern Sigil would express your opinions, no matter pro or cons. Thanks.

04-09-2012, 01:20 PM	#6
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 27,553 Karma: 193191846 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	I'm fairly certain remaining free and open-source was one of the conditions (or at least the intention) when the original creator/maintainer passed the torch to user_none. He strikes me as someone who would honor that intention. Last edited by DiapDealer; 04-09-2012 at 01:25 PM.

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04-09-2012, 12:12 PM	#2
Doitsu Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,584 Karma: 22735033 Join Date: Dec 2010 Device: Kindle PW2	IMHO, the current maintainer user_none does a great job adding new features to Sigil all the time and quickly addresses critical bugs. While there are some minor bugs and quirks, Sigil is easily on par with commercial programs and most people who complain about robustness issues or lack of user friendliness often simply lack the necessary skills to properly use Sigil, and many of them would probably be better off using other programs. BTW, since Sigil is CC BY-SA 3.0 licensed, theoretically anybody could grab the code and create a commercial derivative under a different name as long as they abide by the Creative Commons rules.

04-09-2012, 12:12 PM	#3
weatherwax Guru Posts: 904 Karma: 5921577 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: South of Germany Device: PRS650 (red), Kindle PW2, Galaxy Note 8	Are you part of the Sigil team? As a non-professional who uses Sigil a lot, I'm fine with it's functionalities and glad that it is free. I use it as an epub editor. There seem to be quite a few people who use Sigil for their personal needs only, it's not too complicated if you know some html and css are are not afraid to work in code view.

04-09-2012, 01:07 PM	#4
eping ePub Maker Posts: 120 Karma: 16 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Mordor Device: iPad,Kindle 3, Nook 2	What shocked me most is that I saw nearly 1000 viewers on calibre while no more than 10 viewers on Sigil in this forum at the same time. I hope there should be 100 viewers at least. Btw, I wish I could take part in development of Sigil, but too bad, I know nothing about C++, the language Sigil uses.

04-09-2012, 01:48 PM	#8
Shack70 Guru Posts: 775 Karma: 1043626 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: York, Pa Device: Kindle Fire 10", Honor 8 Android Phone	I never used Sigil as I thought it was more of editor for e-books than a catalog program. Calibre is a catalog program with tons of nice features. Not sure how commercializing would help either one at this point

04-10-2012, 07:19 AM	#11
mrmikel Color me gone Posts: 2,089 Karma: 1445295 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Oregon Coast Device: PRS-300	I think the difference between Calibre and Sigil is the difference between the Detroit car manufacturers and a performance shop. Both are useful and both needed and they are complementary. The performance shop will never have as many customers, but those it has really are loyal and need it. And what they produce is finer tuned and more sophisticated, but it does take knowledge. When Sigil users look under the hood at what Calibre produces, they are likely to say," Yeah it runs, but why all these extra hoses??" (grin)

04-10-2012, 07:47 AM	#12
Rob Lister Fanatic Posts: 532 Karma: 3293888 Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Virginia Device: Nook Simple Touch	If ever there was a software project that could stand on its on as a commercial and profitable endeavor, it is Sigil. Its operation and functionality are iceberg-lettuce crisp; it is an absolute joy to use. I kinda think it is a shame that its developers will not realize a direct monetary gain for their work.

04-10-2012, 11:25 AM	#13
kiwidude Calibre Plugins Developer Posts: 4,637 Karma: 2162064 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Australia Device: Kindle Oasis	@Rob - the developers can be remunerated via donations if people feel so motivated. Though I don't share your opinion about "iceberge lettuce crisp" and "joy to use" though. It certainly could be one day - but it isn't there yet. I want to love it, I really do - as a concept it is brilliant and as someone who just wants a quick and easy way to cleanup books/modify styles and do some splits/merging it is perfect for the task to launch from calibre. However it has never ever had the slightest stability due to the horrific list of bugs. I don't mean just the simpler usability issues - I mean the soul destroying stuff where content just disappears/reverts/reappears/jumps around at apparent random during merge/view change or find operations. Resulting in much frustration and all too often having to start all over again. I applaud user_none and meme for their efforts at stomping on these where they can and rewriting or polishing some of the more obvious rough edges. But even they are constrained by issues with Qt, getting to grips with a legacy codebase from Valloric and as always with time as to how much they can "fix". Time will tell - I look forward to seeing how the 0.6 releases work and whether the find/replace is finally 100% rock solid etc. And if/when the extensibility API happens then it could get really interesting, as other developers (possibly me too) might look to offer plugin contributions to scratch various itches that the Sigil devs don't see as a priority.

04-11-2012, 06:03 AM	#15
kiwidude Calibre Plugins Developer Posts: 4,637 Karma: 2162064 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Australia Device: Kindle Oasis	No virus, just Sigil bugs. Some of which I know meme worked on during the 0.5.x releases, but others are caused by Qt as far as I have been told. And if you spend half an hour to an hour carefully crafting many regexes over and over and stepping through your document multiple times to clean it up to then have yet another bug trash your work... over and over again, document after document, month after month, release after release - yes to me that is soul destroying stuff. When it works it is absolutely brilliant, but the sheer number of hours I have lost due to when it goes badly wrong makes me cringe.

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