On the table: DRM trumps fair dealing (Canada) - Page 7

grumbles · 06-12-2010, 02:45 PM

The only thing wrong with this bill is that the DRM restrictions make all other provisions of the bill pointless.

If a publisher encrypts his file with rot13, the user has *NO* rights at all and furthermore *MUST* use the publisher's rot13 decryption program and *NO* other.

All that is required to fix this bill is to allow DRM circumvention in pursuit of fair use. Uploading and handing out copies would still be illegal, as they are now.

The issue of whether copyrights are good or bad has nothing to do with this bill. One thing that does not seem to be in the bill is an extension of copyright and for that we should be thankful.

In my opinion, the current life plus 50 is reasonable although I would prefer a simple life term. Corporate or commercial copyrights, I would curtail to 25 years with no extension or renewal. To use everyone's favourite bad example, Disney has made their fortune by plundering the public domain and spending even more on lawyers and politicians to make sure that nothing of theirs ever goes back. It's not that Disney's work should have a period of copyright protection, Fantasia is a work of art, a masterpiece but protected for 90 years? Really...

There is an Italian film done sometime in the '70s (I think) that was a gentle send-up of Fantasia. Different music, different animation and different presentation (I seem to recall a cleaning lady in the live sequence.)
Disney sued of course and there are very few that can stand up to American Corporate attack lawyers.

But I digress... With a few small changes this bill could be fixed so that all are protected.

cheers
Grumbles

Shaggy · 06-14-2010, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumbles

All that is required to fix this bill is to allow DRM circumvention in pursuit of fair use.

But then there would be no point to DRM.

HarryT · 06-14-2010, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

But then there would be no point to DRM.

Doesn't that rather depend on the situation? For example, I think most people would accept that having DRM on library books is essential, and that to remove that DRM is not fair use.

Shaggy · 06-14-2010, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

For example, I think most people would accept that having DRM on library books is essential...

I can borrow MP3's from our local library, and they don't have any DRM on them.

HarryT · 06-14-2010, 02:59 PM

How does that work? The library will buy the right to loan out a certain number of copies of a particular book. The DRM is the mechanism whereby that usage limit is tracked and enforced. With your MP3 files, how do you "return" them to the library? How does the library keep track of how many people currently have the track on loan?

Shaggy · 06-14-2010, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

The DRM is the mechanism whereby that usage limit is tracked and enforced.

DRM is a mechanism, not the only mechanism.

My wife does most of it, actually, but the way I believe it works is that you install Overdrive's application on your PC which interfaces with the library's site to download content, etc. From Overdrive you can then sync the files with your iPod, etc. Overdrive has expiration dates inside it for the content (in this case an MP3 audio-book), even if the content itself does not contain any DRM. Once the time is up, Overdrive deletes the file from your PC and won't let you sync it anymore to your device. Then the library flags it as being available for another customer again.

The content itself doesn't have any of the nonsense of DRM (device compatibility, fair use restrictions, etc). It'll work with any device that supports MP3s (which is most of them).

Shaggy · 06-14-2010, 03:34 PM

It's similar to the model that cable TV companies use. The control/restrictions are between the cable company and the set-top-box in the customer's home. The content that actually goes to the customer's TV is generally unencumbered by the DRM disease.

In the library example, the controls/restrictions are between their site and the application on your PC that manages the downloads. The actual content the customer receives is an open format.

nstroud · 06-14-2010, 06:09 PM

DRM presents a barrier to access to library materials. To get an Overdrive audiobook on my laptop or Ipod, I have to have Windows (can't use a free, open source OS). I have to have ITunes, Windows Media Player, and the Overdrive Console installed and working properly. In my experience, this is almost never a straightforward process.

It's difficult for those who can't afford Windows or those with little or no technical expertise to access DRM-protected library content. Traditionally, libraries exist to help underserved populations, and DRM certainly doesn't help us do that.

A person could take a library book home and photocopy all the pages, or rip a library CD to their home computer; we don't institute rules requiring people to use library materials on the premises. I believe it should be up to each library customer to decide whether or not they are going to break the law.

Besides, if it's easier to grab a torrent of the ebook than go through the library's DRM hoops, what do you think people are going to do?

My favorite anti-DRM comic, ever:
http://bradcolbow.com/archive/view/t...nt_work/?p=205

Shaggy · 06-14-2010, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nstroud

A person could take a library book home and photocopy all the pages, or rip a library CD to their home computer; we don't institute rules requiring people to use library materials on the premises. I believe it should be up to each library customer to decide whether or not they are going to break the law.

Yes, exactly. How about this thought regarding DRM. Don't treat all of your customers like criminals, and maybe you'll end up with more customers.

HarryT · 06-15-2010, 02:24 AM

The time-limiting DRM mechanism on library books is a mechanism for implementing the usage limits that the library has purchased for a particular book. It's difficult to see how such limits could be implemented and enforced without using some form of DRM system. Can you suggest a viable alternative?

Moejoe · 06-15-2010, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

The time-limiting DRM mechanism on library books is a mechanism for implementing the usage limits that the library has purchased for a particular book. It's difficult to see how such limits could be implemented and enforced without using some form of DRM system. Can you suggest a viable alternative?

Why impose these limits in the first place when they are almost certainly redundant?

HarryT · 06-15-2010, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Why impose these limits in the first place when they are almost certainly redundant?

I'm afraid I don't understand the question, Moejoe. A library buys "x" copies of a book, if it's a paper book. If it's an eBook, they buy a licence to distribute "x" simultaneous copies of the book for a restricted period of time. Are you suggesting that a library should buy a licence to provide unlimited copies of an eBook? That would be enormously expensive - would you, as a taxpayer, be willing to pay the significantly increased taxes that such a move would entail?

Moejoe · 06-15-2010, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm afraid I don't understand the question, Moejoe. A library buys "x" copies of a book, if it's a paper book. If it's an eBook, they buy a licence to distribute "x" simultaneous copies of the book for a restricted period of time. Are you suggesting that a library should buy a licence to provide unlimited copies of an eBook? That would be enormously expensive - would you, as a taxpayer, be willing to pay the significantly increased taxes that such a move would entail?

You prove my point, it is redundant to classify a license to distribute a digital item in the same manner as you would treat a physically bought copy. One digital copy is all digital copies. If the material is available freely and without restriction all places but said distribution channel, then said distribution channel and the practices of digital restriction become redundant. This isn't even a what is right or what is wrong argument, just a 'what is' explanation. It takes only one digital file to become all digital files. All morality arguments and laws aside, and looking only toward the practical, if a library buys a license to distribute X digital copies and said product is available at all other places without restriction and no barriers, the restriction becomes meaningless and has the exact opposite effect on its target audience.

Restrictions don't work when the identical product is available with less hassle from other venues. Also, these systems exclude large portions of tax-payers who use free software as their primary operating systems. On every level they are impractical, wasteful of resources and benefit nobody but the IP holders.

Logically now, knowing what you know of the world and what you know of the internet, can you say that these systems are fated to do anything but fail in the future?

Krystian Galaj · 06-15-2010, 12:13 PM

Those DRM systems are there for the peace of mind of stupid executives, and as long as they're not bothering anyone, people don't care enough to break the illusion.

DawnFalcon · 06-15-2010, 12:47 PM

I don't know, I've recently been exposed to an interesting, if not convincing, argument that DRM and IP laws are the Great Filter.

06-12-2010, 02:45 PM	#91
grumbles Addict Posts: 238 Karma: 1500000 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Toronto Device: Pandigital Novel (Black), T-2 and 3, Nexus 7	Meanwhile back in the House-- The only thing wrong with this bill is that the DRM restrictions make all other provisions of the bill pointless. If a publisher encrypts his file with rot13, the user has NO rights at all and furthermore MUST use the publisher's rot13 decryption program and NO other. All that is required to fix this bill is to allow DRM circumvention in pursuit of fair use. Uploading and handing out copies would still be illegal, as they are now. The issue of whether copyrights are good or bad has nothing to do with this bill. One thing that does not seem to be in the bill is an extension of copyright and for that we should be thankful. In my opinion, the current life plus 50 is reasonable although I would prefer a simple life term. Corporate or commercial copyrights, I would curtail to 25 years with no extension or renewal. To use everyone's favourite bad example, Disney has made their fortune by plundering the public domain and spending even more on lawyers and politicians to make sure that nothing of theirs ever goes back. It's not that Disney's work should have a period of copyright protection, Fantasia is a work of art, a masterpiece but protected for 90 years? Really... There is an Italian film done sometime in the '70s (I think) that was a gentle send-up of Fantasia. Different music, different animation and different presentation (I seem to recall a cleaning lady in the live sequence.) Disney sued of course and there are very few that can stand up to American Corporate attack lawyers. But I digress... With a few small changes this bill could be fixed so that all are protected. cheers Grumbles

06-14-2010, 06:09 PM	#98
nstroud Junior Member Posts: 1 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jun 2010 Device: Kindle	Here's one who's against DRM for library materials DRM presents a barrier to access to library materials. To get an Overdrive audiobook on my laptop or Ipod, I have to have Windows (can't use a free, open source OS). I have to have ITunes, Windows Media Player, and the Overdrive Console installed and working properly. In my experience, this is almost never a straightforward process. It's difficult for those who can't afford Windows or those with little or no technical expertise to access DRM-protected library content. Traditionally, libraries exist to help underserved populations, and DRM certainly doesn't help us do that. A person could take a library book home and photocopy all the pages, or rip a library CD to their home computer; we don't institute rules requiring people to use library materials on the premises. I believe it should be up to each library customer to decide whether or not they are going to break the law. Besides, if it's easier to grab a torrent of the ebook than go through the library's DRM hoops, what do you think people are going to do? My favorite anti-DRM comic, ever: http://bradcolbow.com/archive/view/t...nt_work/?p=205

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06-14-2010, 02:59 PM	#95
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	How does that work? The library will buy the right to loan out a certain number of copies of a particular book. The DRM is the mechanism whereby that usage limit is tracked and enforced. With your MP3 files, how do you "return" them to the library? How does the library keep track of how many people currently have the track on loan?

06-14-2010, 03:34 PM	#97
Shaggy Wizard Posts: 4,293 Karma: 529619 Join Date: May 2007 Device: iRex iLiad, DR800SG	It's similar to the model that cable TV companies use. The control/restrictions are between the cable company and the set-top-box in the customer's home. The content that actually goes to the customer's TV is generally unencumbered by the DRM disease. In the library example, the controls/restrictions are between their site and the application on your PC that manages the downloads. The actual content the customer receives is an open format.

06-15-2010, 02:24 AM	#100
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	The time-limiting DRM mechanism on library books is a mechanism for implementing the usage limits that the library has purchased for a particular book. It's difficult to see how such limits could be implemented and enforced without using some form of DRM system. Can you suggest a viable alternative?

06-15-2010, 12:13 PM	#104
Krystian Galaj Guru Posts: 820 Karma: 11012 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Warsaw, Poland Device: Bookeen Cybook	Those DRM systems are there for the peace of mind of stupid executives, and as long as they're not bothering anyone, people don't care enough to break the illusion.

06-15-2010, 12:47 PM	#105
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	I don't know, I've recently been exposed to an interesting, if not convincing, argument that DRM and IP laws are the Great Filter.

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