01-29-2022, 09:05 AM | #1 |
the rook, bossing Never.
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ditto
What's best typographic practice for identical list items?
1. " (typewriter straight double quote, almost never in real printed works) 2. “ (proper opening double quotes) 3. ” (proper closing double quotes) 4. " (italic or oblique straight double quotes) 5. ″ (double prime, proper way for inches, minutes etc) Or is there an actual ditto character used in typesetting before unicode etc that's in common unicode fonts? Item 3, ” seems likely, but I've not seen anything definitive. Lists with dittos aren't common in fiction. As an aside the typewriter single quote does seem to be used in real typesetting in transliteration of some words not normally using the Roman-Latin alphabet, or perhaps to indicate syllables in some dictionaries? |
01-29-2022, 09:49 AM | #2 |
A Hairy Wizard
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I’m definitely not an expert… but I’ve only ever seen the standard straight double quote.
All the others have a specific purpose surrounding actual words. But just to prove me wrong… |
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01-29-2022, 10:26 AM | #3 | |
the rook, bossing Never.
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The " and ' originate on typewriters and historically from 19th C. till Teletype printouts were directly published followed decades later by self published DOS text, would always have been converted by typesetters or marked up by proofreaders for typesetting.
Apparently a pair of straight single quotes '' or pair of closing single quotes are sometimes used. ’’ Font support for the actual U+3003 ditto symbol is abysmal, though it was added to unicode in 1993, though the marks may date back nearly 3000 years! e.g. https://www.htmlsymbols.xyz/unicode/U+3003 So using U+3003 is pointless. CJK = Chinese, japanese & Korean? Quote:
So perhaps in English the closing double quote is best, or italic straight double quote " if ” looks strange in the current font. Apparently it's better style to repeat the information (Oxford guide)or use "do." as an abbreviation of ditto. Edit: It's in Noto Sans CJK <variations>, but I'd be mad to use it on ebooks or paper. Last edited by Quoth; 01-29-2022 at 10:35 AM. |
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01-29-2022, 12:41 PM | #4 |
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FWIW, I'm a double-straight quotes girl myself.
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01-29-2022, 02:07 PM | #5 | |||||
Wizard
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In English, when writing a "ditto character", it should be 1 or 3:
(I always use RIGHT DOUBLE QUOTES.) Quote:
But after doing some quick research, it does seem like there's an actual:
but this is ONLY meant to be used in CJK (Asian) texts. * * * Side Note: For the actual technical information on that, see: That Unicode file describes: Quote:
Code:
3003 ; Bopo Hang Hani Hira Kana # Po DITTO MARK
See also:
Quote:
Only time I recall seeing the straight was when digitizing typewriter material. Quote:
Remember the latest discussion: Italics and emphasis has a purpose. You don't just go marking them up "because you want it to show in italics". Just like you don't go marking text with <h3> "just to make it bold and slightly bigger font"! Quote:
So much of ditto's usage is dependent on visuals + vertical alignment. And, in ebooks, you can't guarantee the duplicate text will be directly above/below each other. Ditto can also occur in:
Let's take care of the easy one first: * * * Dittos in Tabular Data In this case, I'd still say using the "ditto quotes" would be fine. I'd rule out "do."—it's antiquated. (Can't say I've seen it in any modern books.) I'd almost always replace that with the more modern quote marks. Repeating all information, from an Accessibility standpoint, may be the best. But, from a visual/typographical standpoint, it can lead to tons of visual clutter + can harm table's readability/understandability. Side Note: On alignment + spacing + reducing table clutter, see the famous GIF I linked to: "How to make your tables less terrible" + similar to the arguments I made in: And I highly recommend the absolutely fantastic book: "The Visual Display of Quantitative Information" by Edward Tufte. Side Note #2: On a similar typographical note, you should use EM DASH and not a HYPHEN when dealing with "unknown/blank data": * * * Dittos in Text This is where I would lean much further towards "repeat all the text" instead. I've seen the "ditto symbol" used in:
One example can be seen in: If converting this to ebook, write it all out: Code:
<i>c</i> before <i>e</i> or <i>i</i> is pronounced as in <i>church</i> <i>g</i> before <i>e</i> or <i>i</i> is pronounced as in <i>gin</i>
Similarly, I've seen examples like this with ditto marks under each matching word: And that, too, is problematic in ebooks for the same exact reasons. I know it looks really ugly, and seems extremely repetitive/verbose, but in ebooks, you should repeat all the text in those cases. (For example, Text-to-Speech will have absolutely NO IDEA what the heck to do with the text in the above 2 images.) Last edited by Tex2002ans; 01-29-2022 at 03:56 PM. |
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01-29-2022, 02:24 PM | #6 | |
the rook, bossing Never.
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Thanks everyone, much what I thought.
I'd only use italics to fake something if it's on paper, not in an ebook. Quote:
Using quote marks is only going to reliably give what you intend on paper unless maybe it's a list in an eBook in monospace that is supposed to be a note off a typewriter or old terminal screen or teletype. I too have only seen "do." in pre 1939 lists and it has the same issues in an ebook as marks. I'd use ” on paper, with maybe — ” — for wider items but in ebooks unless it's a small monospaced section the marks are not going to work. One of many examples of that you can't use the same source for paper and source for ebooks without some thoughtful editing, because paper can be truly WYSIWYG proofed on screen and the paper proof will be what everyone sees, but there is no assurance that ebooks display as you think, though I test on from a 4.3" to 10" screen with Apps, three kinds of kindle, 5" to 10" eink epubs etc. Also if using a new style /edited style or new font we download the three main Amazon retail versions. Local conversion can't assure you of what Amazon is doing! |
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01-29-2022, 02:30 PM | #7 | |
the rook, bossing Never.
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Quote:
Also I read stuff out. |
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