Amazon has banned my account - my Kindle is now a (partial) brick.

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by moz

A great deal of what fictionwise sell is available from them without DRM. I had previously assumed that other shops would be the same - a minority of titles that can only be rented and the rest of the stock able to be purchased. But perhaps I'm seeing a biased view because I only rent DRMed title that I can easily strip the DRM from, making them equivalent to a purchase (albeit often more expensive).

I wouldn't buy a Kindle for the same reasons - I'd be paying extra for features that I want not to use.

Actually you can strip DRM easily from most Amazon books. I was referring to what Amazon approves of you doing. It's clearly against their ToS and possibly illegal.

Edit: I just wanted to add that I looked up the last 5 books I bought and of the 4 they had, none were available without DRM.

[badgoodDeb]

Perhaps, now that Ian can again access his account, he could give us a rough tally of the number of returns and the price range. Then we might know at what point Amazon starts to get worried.....

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by pagansoul

1) Aways back up your purchases on your own computer. This goes for all the sites that offer shelves or bookcases or whatever to keep your purchases. This means your ebooks, MP3s, videos, audio books, whatever.....
2) Don't let anyone else use your account. It is yours and anything that happens to it is your fault.
3) Everything you do is on a file somewhere, live with it.

I'm happy things worked out for you Ian. Now, back up your purchases and don't use your card for anything other than e-books from amazon.

Urtunately, just using your card for ebooks at Amazon doesn't protect the consumer.

And, krisk, I do believe him simply because I spent a good portion of last night researching Amazon's banning of its customers for exceeding a still unknown number or percentage of returns.

The problem is, when Amazon decided to ban one or more customers, they do it not based upon a specific credit card number, but they ban all at the addresses associated with the account (and that includes the "ship to" addresses).

That means that, if you try to start an account using a different credit card but the same address, that account will be flagged and banned. If you purchased something on the (now banned) account and shipped it to a friend as a gift, Amazon may ban the accounts at that address as well.

I found instances of banning going back as far as 2001 (before I got tired and went to bed). It also worries me that they do not give the consumer a warning, they just cut them off, along with any other addresses "related" to that account.

I have no idea what Ian did or did not do. I only know that his is not even an unusual case. From the perspective of a long time Amazon customer, I am concerned and plan to look into this further. I can't very well recommend the Kindle (either version) to anyone else knowing what I now know about Amazon's unstated policy on returns.

I was one of the people who told people that if they didn't like the Kindle, they had 30 to check it out. I don't think I would have ever suggested that knowing that there is a catch to the return, even a catch if it turns out it's defective. Maybe you can return it .... then again, maybe not.

Coupled with DRM associated with Kindle ebooks, and the fact that you may be faced with the inability to access your media center purchases, I think I would be likely to recommend pretty much anything other than a Kindle.

Oh, I am about as far from being a Sony troll as it is possible to be. I'm keeping my Kindles because I've got to much invested in them to just toss them and the ebooks I have purchased. However, that also means that future electronics purchases will come from other vendors, because I have too much invested in my Kindles to put them at risk because I have to return a defective product.

[Damætas]

Ditto to Ricky. I spent last night doing the same research. The fact that there are so many corroborating stories and that it goes back years and comes in waves concerns me, especially as a Kindle customer. It seems that one simple stated policy or one simply warning (do x again and you will be banned) would go a long way to making their practice more reasonable.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Alisa, you are quite right and I apologise for my misunderstanding.

Having said that - I still don't believe a word of it!

Don't believe what, that Amazon would do it? They've been banning folks over returns for years.

[amgoforth]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, if you re-read it (post #16 in the thread), it says that their customer service department will no longer speak to him, but that he can e-mail "cis@amazon.com".

I always think personally that it's best to go through a company's own internal "processes" before getting third parties involved. If you can achieve a satisfactory outcome that way, it saves hassle for everybody.

I agree, that way you have given them ever possible chance to clear this up.

[ficbot]

Two things worry me about this story. First, I wonder about other stores. I shop at Fictionwise and have contacted their customer service a few times. I think there are only two books they actually gave me refunds on (and I bought over 100) and they seem nice and all, but I would hate to wake up one day and just have them decide I am too much for them and cut me off with no warning.

Secondly, flagging by *address* is a problem. What if this guy sells his Kindle and someone else tries to register it? Or what if he moves houses and someone else buys his house and lives there and tries to open an Amazon account? There needs to be some transparency here about the policy.

[emellaich]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Alisa, you are quite right and I apologise for my misunderstanding.

Having said that - I still don't believe a word of it!

I do believe him. I had a similar experience with a bricks-and-mortar store from the pre-internet days. I purchased a big TV -- you know a 36 inch CRT style -- well, it was big for the time.

Anyway, I had some problems and returned it. The retailer happily accepted it back. No questions, no problems. However, next time I went to buy something there I was told I was banned for 'excessive returns' even though this was the only thing I had ever returned.

Even if you don't believe Ian, the story is a cautionary tale that illustrates the problem with the DRM approaches of today. Whether you buy from Amazon, Fictionwise, the Sony Store or from another source, what do you do if your supplier stops offering service?

Amazon once offered ebooks in the LIT and pdf formats. Sony had an entire music store that it closed down. Other book stores have discontinued ebook sales (barnesandnoble).

So what do you do if you buy a book and your provider disappears? If it is drm-free (like-Baen) you can keep your own backup and it will work on whichever reader you still own.

BTW, if you are new to the game, readers are like laptops: every few years you will need to replace or upgrade. I've used Palm devices, a couple of windows CE devices, an Ebookman, a Cybook, and now I'm using a K2. In two to three years I'll probably be using something different. If you want all of your old books to work with your new device they need to be non-proprietary.

[rana]

Count me as yet another person that have been a very happy customer of Amazon for over 10 years now ... but who is increasingly getting worried by the recent moves Amazon has been making.

The whole KindlePID incident and how they treated MR was the first shock and totally against what I believed about their policies !

Now after reading this thread, I did a lot of research on this whole incident of Amazon banning people over returns ... and Boy ! is there a horror story here or what ???

I have absolutely no problem with a company having a strict return policy and limiting returns/replacements. The part that does not AT ALL sit right with me about what Amazon is doing is the the deliberate non-clarity into the whole process. It feels nothing but hypocrisy and cheating (or at least, misleading) customers.

No where in their stated policies I find any reference to "we will only accept a certain amount of returns; after that we will have to request you to not do business with us". On the quite contrary, the few instances where I have had to return my Amazon purchases, I have been extremely pleased with how polite the customer service reps have been and how easy they made the whole process ! Ease of return is a HUGE part of mental peace ... especially when making big purchases ... that I consider when buying something. I gladly pay a bit more for the assurance of knowing *if* something goes wrong, the company will stand behind me and let me return my purchase. It rarely happens, but because of this assurance, the company gets more business from me. Amazon and Costco has been two best examples in this regard that I can think of.

Now Amazon seems to be suddenly realizing that they have been perhaps too lenient on their return policy. Fine, that is understandable. But what I would have expected is Amazon to clearly notify this change in policy and let customers know that going forward they will not entertain returns as easily as they used to do. Costco did the same with their electronics returns some time back where they put certain restrictions (which are STILL *very* generous, if I may add) ... and because of that Costco will continue to gain my business.

But I am TRULY sorry to say that because of the current underhanded practices Amazon seems to be employing, they have entirely lost my trust and I will be EXTREMELY cautious about giving them any more of my business. I used to purchase several thousand dollars worth of various items from Amazon ... going forward I can see that dropping to close to zero.

While it may sound like I am threatening Amazon, it isn't really that way. I am just extremely disappointed that a company I used to love so much doing business with is heading in the exact opposite direction of why I used to like them. They sure seems to be acting like they have become too big to care about individual customers ... most of whom helped them become who they are today. The perfect recipe of the start of a downfall, or so it seems to me

[gandor62]

well I'm convinced. All my Amazon stuff is now backed up and stripped. I will not ever buy DRMed ebooks again. And I'll be closing my amazon account myself. I refuse to do any business with a company that acts like this. They set policy so tough luck for them. I remeber the days when Amazon was a lot smaller and was freind to consumers. Now we are just a inconvient part attached to some money. It's not just this, they are even screwing around and intimidating with authors that do business with them. Just random malicious acts against people. This is in my opinion a company that has lost it's origional focus and is heading down a bad path. A trip I will not be participating in anymore. See you all on the dark side.

[kelly1010]

Wow I honestly don't know which side to believe. I really feel that there was more to the story, but nevertheless I'm glad he got his account back. I shop at amazon pretty frequently, although I don't normally buy electronics from them. I will definitely be cautious from now on.

And, I'm SO glad I didn't get the Kindle. I will be telling everyone I know who has Kindles, about this story.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by kelly1010

And, I'm SO glad I didn't get the Kindle. I will be telling everyone I know who has Kindles, about this story.

The story that Amazon flagged an account, and that when the customer politely queried it, they reinstated it? Bit of a "non-story" when it comes down to it, isn't it, and simply shows that Amazon have some kind of automated system for detecting "scammers", which one would expect any large retailer to have.

[thibaulthalpern]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi all-

I have certainly kept thousands of dollars worth of items purchased from Amazon and planned to be a lifelong customer.
-Ian

Ian,

Sorry to hear about your case.

I don't have much to say but do have one thing to say:

I find it rather, well, odd that anyone should "plan to be a lifelong customer." Under what social obligation is there that any customer should be or ought to be a lifelong customer? If we believe that we should be a lifelong customer to a corporation, in which western ideology has made into the likes of a person with rights and values, then we are falling for a belief that is untenable.

As it seems to be in your case, you invest emotions and a relationship to a non-being entity but Amazon does not invest in you the same way. But, Amazon's corporate managers do want you to believe that Amazon is a being that will also investment in you. It is but falsity. Don't fall for it.

[thibaulthalpern]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

I've heard of people here who have had problems with two or more Kindles they have gotten.

Here's why I think what Amazon is doing is a remarkably bad idea. Amazon wants to move the Kindle into the schools, correct?? They have made it rather clear that they would like to see students using Kindles for their textbooks.

.

A bit of a side note on my part:

I think using any digital reader for intensive school classroom purposes IS A BAD, BAD IDEA. In the classroom, one needs to be able to flip back and forth from various pages to various marked pages easily. And especially in college, from one book to the other. No digital reader has an interface that facilitates this easily. A digital reader only allows for one page of one item to be displayed at a time. This is very limiting.

That said, as a scholar, I am in the process of putting all my PDFs on my digital reader. But, I don't need to use it in the way that a student would in the classroom. In addition, I also write notes to things I read in a physical book.

Digital reader in the classroom, a horribly stupid and slow idea. Don't do it. Use physical books.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by HarryT

...simply shows that Amazon have some kind of automated system for detecting "scammers", which one would expect any large retailer to have.

I think they probably have a system for detecting 'demanding customers'; and that they're tightening up their definition of 'demanding'.

And it's just one more part of a pattern where Amazon are concerned.