DRM confusion

[speedlever]

Originally Posted by Fbone

And if you have a Border's nearby, you can receive 33% off with coupon on the $6.99 paperback bringing you down to $4.83.

Option 3 is buying a used book which is even cheaper. I don't think there's an equivalent in the ebook world, is there?

This DRM thing just doesn't apply to the physical world of tree books, does it?

If I buy a tree book, I own it and can legally:
read it, loan it, give it, sell it...
do anything except make and sell copies, right?

But if I buy an ebook, all heck breaks loose.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Catlady

The reason that I tried to convert the free books was to test whether I could still shop at Amazon for e-books. I've decided that I'm not willing to risk throwing away money for books I won't be able to read on my reader.

FYI, at Amazon you can return ebooks for a refund the same way you can return real books for a refund. There is a much shorter timeframe in which you can return them, but it will be long enough to check whether you can read it or not.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by astra

The majority have no clue/don't give a fig about compatibility, DRM etc. All they care is convenience. If you can get a book with a few clicks of a mouse start reading a book, then come, home switch on another device that will automatically synchronise with the other one where you started to read the book and open the book on the same page where you left off....it sounds like a dream.

My guess is that the majority of people don't care because they are using their first e-reader. Suppose it's a Kindle; they're happily buying books from Amazon. But now there are suddenly these non-Kindle color e-readers that look tempting--it could easily be an unpleasant surprise to discover that, oops, those Kindle books won't transfer to the color reader under the Christmas tree.

It's when people go off the reservation to a different device that their eyes will be opened to the compatibility and DRM issues.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

FYI, at Amazon you can return ebooks for a refund the same way you can return real books for a refund. There is a much shorter timeframe in which you can return them, but it will be long enough to check whether you can read it or not.

Thanks, I did know that Amazon allows returns. Also, I guess if a sample chapter can be converted, the whole book can be converted. But it's just an unnecessary hassle and easier to shop at a store that wants my business.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Also, I guess if a sample chapter can be converted, the whole book can be converted. .

I wouldn't assume that, but I don't know for sure. It would seem a bit pointless having restrictions on a sample.

[suecsi]

Originally Posted by Falcao

I'm not demanding that, just the ability to copy and "play" the book in different devices. When I buy a music CD, I can copy the songs and play them in my laptop and cell phone. I want to do the same with e-books.

You can

It's called Kindle4PC, Kindle4Mac, KindleforIPhone, Kindle4Android and (in the US officially, but apparently it sorta works outside), Kindle4Blackberry

[paola]

Originally Posted by suecsi

You can

It's called Kindle4PC, Kindle4Mac, KindleforIPhone, Kindle4Android and (in the US officially, but apparently it sorta works outside), Kindle4Blackberry

yep, but these are all backlit devices - I hope I am wrong, but I do not think you can read it on an e-reader that is not Kindle.

Originally Posted by catlady

My guess is that the majority of people don't care because they are using their first e-reader. Suppose it's a Kindle; they're happily buying books from Amazon.

not only that - a newby may very well discover that there are restrictions after buying a book or an e-reader. The restriction is not really prominent, and the newcomer must somehow infer that "Kindle edition" means you cannot read the book anywhere else but kindle.

The masses of questions on DRM issues on this forum suggests to me that this issue is far from being obvious...

[suecsi]

Yes - all backlit - but personally I think that the text 'Available on these Devices' on a Kindle Book page with a drop down list of all Kindle E-Ink devices plus the ones I mentioned on PCs etc should be enough to raise a red flag for someone who has an alternative device.

I've read more DRM confusion from people buying EPUBs and then not being able to read them on Kindle than the other way round - certainly in the UK, anyway.

I don't necessarily agree with the DRM per se but I think it is the buyer's responsibility to do their homework first.

If 'Kindle Edition' isn't obvious enough, not sure what else they'd call it ....

[DMSmillie]

Originally Posted by speedlever

This DRM thing just doesn't apply to the physical world of tree books, does it?

If I buy a tree book, I own it and can legally:
read it, loan it, give it, sell it...
do anything except make and sell copies, right?

But if I buy an ebook, all heck breaks loose.

Well... it's vastly easier to copy and distribute pirate copies of an electronic file than it is to produce and distribute pirate copies of a physical, printed-on-paper book. And it's that ease of production, plus the demonstrated willingness of many to do so, that alarms some publishers and authors. As a reader, I don't much care for DRM, since it prevents me from easily transferring a book from one device to another for my own personal use. However I've seen many authors post on forums like this that they won't publish without DRM, because they don't see why they should make it easier for thieves to steal their work and distribute it for free. I can understand that concern, even if I don't entirely agree with the solution.

Something else to bear in mind is that when you buy an ebook with DRM, you're not, strictly speaking, buying the book in the same way you buy a physical thing that you own when you buy a paper book - in the case of DRM'd ebooks you're buying a licence to read the work in the provided electronic format on one or more specified devices and/or applications.

However, the music industry has been through all of this, and is finally adapting to the "digital age" in all sorts of ways, and I expect the same thing will eventually happen with ebooks. We're just in that uncomfortable transition phase and sadly the publishing world appears to be repeating many of the mistakes the music industry already made. One can only hope they won't take years to find an acceptable "middle way".

And just a quick note re Amazon and DRM - it's not Amazon who decide whether to add DRM to an ebook - it's the publisher. For indie authors self-publishing via Amazon's Digital Text Platform website, the choice of whether or not to add DRM to each title is simply an option they select during the publication process. Amazon doesn't require DRM as a condition of publishing/selling an ebook in their Kindle store. I've even seen some people say (though I have no way of knowing how true this is) that Amazon only introduced DRM for Kindle ebooks because some of the major publishers refused to publish and sell ebooks with Amazon if they didn't provide DRM.

- Donna

[KevinH]

Hi,

Originally Posted by suecsi

You can

It's called Kindle4PC, Kindle4Mac, KindleforIPhone, Kindle4Android and (in the US officially, but apparently it sorta works outside), Kindle4Blackberry

But what about Kindle books for my Sony reader or on my Kobo reader or any other epub based reader for that matter?

Kindle DRM prevents you from moving your books to another device that does not run Kindle software and similarly it prevents my epubs from being read on the Kindle, and to make matters worse, it prevents iBooks books from even being read on any other device, even one that support DRM epubs!

So all of the manufacturers are trying to lock you into one store, or one platform. They claim they are doing it to protect their and the authors' "copyright" but by doing so they unfairly take away your rights as well including the right to copy for personal use, the right to move between book formats, the right to move between platforms, the right to lend or borrow a book, and in many cases the it prevents the ability for the device to read the book out loud for the deaf, and etc.

I only buy books that I can remove the DRM from so that I truly own them. I never post them for the public or give them away - I want all authors/publishers/bookstores etc to make a decent profit but at the prices they charge I do not believe in their supposed "license to use" model enforced by their DRM.

I always try to vote with my wallet (I wish everyone would) therefore I *never* buy from Apple's iBooks since their DRM has yet to be broken.

Please don't mistake DRM for what it really is - a form of vendor lock-in with associated loss of user rights backed up by unfair laws (in the US at least) that prevent you from trying to to develop or share DRM removal solutions so that you can keep your rights and fight the vendor lock-in.

Instead of adding DRM (and all of its associated costs and headaches) I would rather see a small extra fee paid to some author/publisher association by everyone for every device, dvd, cdrom sold. Much easier and much cheaper to implement and better for everyone involved (no one is forced to become a "criminal" just to get what they already paid for.

My 2 cents



Sad but true.

[Kitabi]

I think these comparisons with music industry are more of wishful thinking than reality. The music industry tried to slam the barn door when the horse had already bolted. There were already too many mp3's in the wild by the time Apple popularized buying music online.

There were enough people ripping music and then distributing it through the likes of Napster, Kazaa and Gnutella to force the RIAA to "deal with it". What's more, a lot of these "pirates" were younger people and suing them just boomeranged on the RIAA. Of course, RIAA also hurt its cause by demanding unrealistic sums of money from those they were able to nail. Instead of making examples out of these people, they just ended up making a caricature of themselves.

None of this is the case with the publishing industry. Online stores and hardware have come out before there are too many ripped books in the wild being traded without caution. The demographics of eBook readers are tilted towards the not-so-young who prefer buying content more than the mp3 pirates ever did.

IMHO the publishing industry has no motivation to "deal with it" like RIAA did. While RIAA managed to reduce piracy, it had to give up the sort of control it would have liked. I do not foresee a similar trajectory for eBooks.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by Kitabi

Online stores and hardware have come out before there are too many ripped books in the wild being traded without caution.

Obviously you haven't been to the Darknet in a while. Plenty of "ebookz" around, in both PDF and other, text-based formats.

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by DMSmillie

And just a quick note re Amazon and DRM - it's not Amazon who decide whether to add DRM to an ebook - it's the publisher. For indie authors self-publishing via Amazon's Digital Text Platform website, the choice of whether or not to add DRM to each title is simply an option they select during the publication process. Amazon doesn't require DRM as a condition of publishing/selling an ebook in their Kindle store. I've even seen some people say (though I have no way of knowing how true this is) that Amazon only introduced DRM for Kindle ebooks because some of the major publishers refused to publish and sell ebooks with Amazon if they didn't provide DRM.

- Donna

One small correction on this. For indie authors (and some small presses) Amazon lets the author (or publisher) choose DRM or not. But for larger publishers (even ones as relatively small as Baen Books), Amazon forces DRM. We know this, in part, because Baen's been negotiating with Amazon for a long time (as in 1-year-plus) to get their books up DRM-free. Their corporate policy is no-DRM, so no Baen e-Books at Amazon until they can be DRM-free. Still waiting...

Xenophon

[Kitabi]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

Obviously you haven't been to the Darknet in a while. Plenty of "ebookz" around, in both PDF and other, text-based formats.

PDF and other textbook formats are not that great on eBook readers if you can get them at all. Plus the editing and typesetting on a lot of these books tend to be atrocious so running them through Calibre/other tools is a waste of time unless you are that desperate to read the book. I have seen books which look as if they were typed in by someone learning to type. Very different from a ripped cd. CD/DVD drives and sofware are more widespread than OCR's and scanning a pbook is much more tedious than ripping a disk.

For the moment, I remain unconvinced that the publishers are under the same kind of pressure that the recording industry was under.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by Kitabi

PDF and other textbook formats are not that great on eBook readers if you can get them at all.

I said "text-based": that includes .txt, .mobi, .prc and .epub. PDF is often formatted to 5" and 6" screens, too.

Plus the editing and typesetting on a lot of these books tend to be atrocious

It happens, I'm sure, but then I've also had less than stellar experience with commercial epubs.

Very different from a ripped cd. CD/DVD drives and sofware are more widespread than OCR's and scanning a pbook is much more tedious than ripping a disk.

I'm not sure how many of these books really are scanned. Some, I suppose, especially the older ones. Newer ones are usually converted directly from digital sources.

For the moment, I remain unconvinced that the publishers are under the same kind of pressure that the recording industry was under.

We'll see. The ebook movement is not going to go away, at any rate, and they're bound to realize at some point (the way the music industry has, to a degree) that it's better to offer legitimate alternatives than simply complain about rampant copyright violations.