Kindle Touch + Multi-level TOC

bookbinder · 10-13-2011, 10:54 AM

Does anyone know if the new Kindles will support multi-level toc (table of contents) like the Sony Reader? I've not been able to find an answer to this. Thanks.

susan_cassidy · 10-13-2011, 11:53 AM

It is supported if the publisher built the TOC correctly, I believe.

jswinden · 10-13-2011, 12:18 PM

I can tell you that my K3 and my K4 NT both support multi-level TOCs. As @susan_cassidy states it does require the publisher to format the TOC/book correctly, and we all know that most eBook publishers have great difficulty getting their eBooks formatted correctly.

....

bookbinder · 10-14-2011, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jswinden

I can tell you that my K3 and my K4 NT both support multi-level TOCs. As @susan_cassidy states it does require the publisher to format the TOC/book correctly, and we all know that most eBook publishers have great difficulty getting their eBooks formatted correctly.

....

Thanks for your responses, but it looks like from the picture you posted that we mean different things by multi-level. I don't mean merely indented, but linkable/clickable. Say there's a long academic book or a Bible with thousands of chapter or sub-chapter headings. In the Kindle, will the contents display all of them at once, so that to get to the last entry, one must first page through many entries? Or could it be done like in the Sony Reader, where one might click (say, for the Bible) first New Testament, then Revelation, then chapter 20--all within the Kindle's contents menu? Otherwise it would be cumbersome to get there.

jswinden · 10-14-2011, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bookbinder

Thanks for your responses, but it looks like from the picture you posted that we mean different things by multi-level. I don't mean merely indented, but linkable/clickable. Say there's a long academic book or a Bible with thousands of chapter or sub-chapter headings. In the Kindle, will the contents display all of them at once, so that to get to the last entry, one must first page through many entries? Or could it be done like in the Sony Reader, where one might click (say, for the Bible) first New Testament, then Revelation, then chapter 20--all within the Kindle's contents menu? Otherwise it would be cumbersome to get there.

The example I gave is linkable/clickable as you say. I used H1 HTML tags to designate level 1 headings and H2 HTML tags to designate level 2 headings. Each is automatically incorporated into the TOC and thus linkable. However, the Sony scheme of expanding or contracting heading levels within the TOC is not supported by Kindle. I wish it was!

BTW, a huge TOC like that for a Bible is never going to be good on an eReader, even when using a Sony. There are just too many headings in too many levels. A new scheme must be discovered to quickly navigate a Bible type of document. I believe @Sirmaru (sp?) developed one for the Bibles he formats. You might search here for that scheme. It was a year or more ago that i saw his post, so it might take some digging to find it.

tomsem · 10-14-2011, 06:34 PM

Kindle does not support multi-level TOC in the ePub sense. A Kindle TOC is just another page in the book with hyperlinks to chapters/sections. Those hyperlinks can have an outline structure, i.e be 'multilevel' in appearance. But to use it, your reading position actually changes to the page with the TOC.

An ePub TOC is based on an NCX structure that is a separate component within the ebook, and the reading system can bring up a navigable TOC view, sometimes being able to 'collapse' the multi-level view. And you can dismiss the view without leaving your current position in the book. It is usually quite a bit nicer than what Kindle offers, but occasionally you find reading systems that only show the top level of the TOC (like Nook Touch). Probably that's what the OT is asking about.

Kindle ebooks often also contain an NCX, but it's only used for chapter navigation, and functionally it is really only top-level (though you can coerce it to navigating 2nd level also). The Kindle Previewer actually has an 'NCX view' that is very much the same as an ePub reading system. Wish they would add that to Kindle itself.

jswinden · 10-14-2011, 06:55 PM

I wish Amazon would buy Adobe and start using ePub. It is a better and more versatile format, and there are more tools available to make creating eBooks easy. Yes I know, it will never happen!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

tomsem · 10-14-2011, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jswinden

I wish Amazon would buy Adobe and start using ePub. It is a better and more versatile format, and there are more tools available to make creating eBooks easy. Yes I know, it will never happen!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I like the idea of ePub, and especially the better TOC navigation, but what I find is that the various reading systems are not very consistent in rendering them, and the versatility comes with the downside that there are more things to go wrong, formatting wise. Then there are the somewhat annoying pauses that occur each time a new chapter has to load up. It's nothing that won't improve over time, and ePub3 brings some interesting things to the table, but right now I find the consistency and performance of Kindle mostly superior.

I think ePub will eventually make it to Kindle but it might take another year or two. Some of the ePub3 stuff is stuff Amazon is going to want to do, and they'll have a hard time getting publishers on board with 'mobi2', I think, especially since there's been no inkling that 'mobi2' even exists. ePub3 is going to take awhile to ramp up (well, there's iBooks, but it's just a start) & there's plenty of time for Amazon to join the ePub3 party.

JeremyR · 10-14-2011, 07:40 PM

epub (the format itself) really isn't the issue, it's turning over the keys to their whole e-book business to Adobe, which just isn't gonna happen.

Blossom · 10-15-2011, 01:28 AM

Ugh you hit something I've been trying to figure out. I buy a omnibus in epub and convert it to mobi in Calibre but I lose the Navigation because the spine and ncx file don't line up!

The thing is I don't know how to fix this most of the time because epub's ncx file uses a text entry at the top Level and it's not link to any file.

If I leave it in the NCX file it doesn't translate well over to mobi and I loose the ability to jump chapters. There's probably a simple fix but I've yet to find it.

10-13-2011, 10:54 AM	#1
bookbinder Connoisseur Posts: 67 Karma: 813 Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Massachusetts, USA Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2, FW:5.6.1	Kindle Touch + Multi-level TOC Does anyone know if the new Kindles will support multi-level toc (table of contents) like the Sony Reader? I've not been able to find an answer to this. Thanks.

10-13-2011, 12:18 PM	#3
jswinden Nameless Being	I can tell you that my K3 and my K4 NT both support multi-level TOCs. As @susan_cassidy states it does require the publisher to format the TOC/book correctly, and we all know that most eBook publishers have great difficulty getting their eBooks formatted correctly. .... Attached Thumbnails Last edited by jswinden; 10-13-2011 at 12:21 PM.

10-14-2011, 06:34 PM	#6
tomsem Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,468 Karma: 25996225 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: USA Device: iPhone 15PM, Kindle Scribe, iPad mini 6, PocketBook InkPad Color 3	Kindle does not support multi-level TOC in the ePub sense. A Kindle TOC is just another page in the book with hyperlinks to chapters/sections. Those hyperlinks can have an outline structure, i.e be 'multilevel' in appearance. But to use it, your reading position actually changes to the page with the TOC. An ePub TOC is based on an NCX structure that is a separate component within the ebook, and the reading system can bring up a navigable TOC view, sometimes being able to 'collapse' the multi-level view. And you can dismiss the view without leaving your current position in the book. It is usually quite a bit nicer than what Kindle offers, but occasionally you find reading systems that only show the top level of the TOC (like Nook Touch). Probably that's what the OT is asking about. Kindle ebooks often also contain an NCX, but it's only used for chapter navigation, and functionally it is really only top-level (though you can coerce it to navigating 2nd level also). The Kindle Previewer actually has an 'NCX view' that is very much the same as an ePub reading system. Wish they would add that to Kindle itself. Last edited by tomsem; 10-14-2011 at 06:42 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Multi-level TOC broken in epub->epub conversion	siebert	Conversion	14	03-09-2011 05:38 PM
Classic Can Nook read Multi-level TOC?	jhempel24	Barnes & Noble NOOK	13	12-09-2010 11:55 PM
Multi-Level TOC	edbro	Calibre	4	09-16-2010 06:54 PM
Multi level TOC	PAQUITO	Bookeen	1	12-23-2009 03:57 AM
ePub, 505 and multi-level ToC	JSWolf	Calibre	4	06-04-2009 02:12 PM

10-13-2011, 11:53 AM	#2
susan_cassidy Wizard Posts: 2,251 Karma: 3720310 Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: USA Device: Kindle, iPad (not used much for reading)	It is supported if the publisher built the TOC correctly, I believe.

10-14-2011, 06:55 PM	#7
jswinden Nameless Being	I wish Amazon would buy Adobe and start using ePub. It is a better and more versatile format, and there are more tools available to make creating eBooks easy. Yes I know, it will never happen! Sorry, I couldn't resist.

10-14-2011, 07:40 PM	#9
JeremyR Guru Posts: 973 Karma: 2458402 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: St. Louis Device: Kindle Keyboard, Nook HD+	epub (the format itself) really isn't the issue, it's turning over the keys to their whole e-book business to Adobe, which just isn't gonna happen.

10-15-2011, 01:28 AM	#10
Blossom Treasure Seeker Posts: 18,708 Karma: 26026435 Join Date: Mar 2010 Device: Kobo HD Glo, Kindles, Kindle Fires, Andriod Devices	Ugh you hit something I've been trying to figure out. I buy a omnibus in epub and convert it to mobi in Calibre but I lose the Navigation because the spine and ncx file don't line up! The thing is I don't know how to fix this most of the time because epub's ncx file uses a text entry at the top Level and it's not link to any file. If I leave it in the NCX file it doesn't translate well over to mobi and I loose the ability to jump chapters. There's probably a simple fix but I've yet to find it.

Advert

Advert