Sigil... portable?

[sl23]

Hi, I've found Sigil quite useful and unique.
It's easy to use and actually imports files with ease thanks to the use of plugins.

I've been trying to convert many PDF's and DocX files to epub, but every app I've tried does a crap job of it. Leaves tons of useless code in the resulting .epub file and looks a mess! Sigil and it's plugins have renewed my faith in this format, so much so that I decided to build a library in Calibre, finally!

Thanks for providing this great app

Ok, so now, I now there's the SigilPortable provided by PortableApps.com, but I'm trying to move away from that platform due to my support for Gianluca's SyMenu app. Which is much more open, easier for anyone to add their own apps and he's a great guy!

I would like to know first if Sigil is natively portable? I've found it leaves many traces in system folders. If it's not, please consider this a request to make it natively portable so all registry entries, settings, files and folders related to it are stored in the main app folder. Even if this is an option the user can specify, it would be great for all then.

There's also a second request if you wouldn't mind. SyMenu is such a great app with it's own auto-updater system for any app. I've created the necessary file for Sigil, which includes all info about Sigil necessary to download, extract and update it.

It's a simple small text file (see attachment) that only needs 3 lines changed for each update:
Version number
Date
Download link

The file (- Sigil 64.sps) has been amended with the .txt suffix in order to be allowed to upload it as an attachment. But it is simply an XML file with a different extension for the use of SyMenu's SPSBuilder app. I added the .txt extension also so you can view it in any text editor.

The reason I'm explaining this is in the hope the Sigil Developers may take on the simple task of updating this SPS file and submitting, via the SPSBuilder app, to be added and updated with each new release of Sigil for use in SyMenu.

It's really a simple process. But when you have hundreds of these files it becomes a task, so in order to relieve the developer the burden, I'm approaching developers to request they take this small burden on themselves. If every developer did this it would make Gianluca's life a lot easier

Thank you for reading, I hope you don't mind the requests from a newcomer!

[DiapDealer]

If Sigil were made to be inherently portable, why would we want to do the work to integrate it with some new portable app platform?

For my part, I'm afraid I'm not interested in either aspect of your request. I don't mind you asking, but I'm afraid I do have to wonder about your zeal to promote and help out this great guy Gianluca and his SyMenu application.

[sl23]

Natively portable means it doesn't leave files all over your pc, keeping it clean. I'm sure you think what harm does a few folders and files do?! But when hundreds of apps are run over several years, this leaves an immense mess of stuff on your system that doesn't need to be there!

Out of curiosity, why do developers use system folders to save settings when the apps folder is much more convenient and preferable for the user?

Integrating it into SyMenu means your users get it updated automatically, as those who use PortableApps.com Menu are at present. Easier for users to get updates! That simple. All it means is that when you open the SyMenu updater, you are shown a list of apps you can choose to download. The SPS file I attached above supplies all the info about an app, allowing the SyMenu updater to download, unpack and install it.

Why am I so zealous? Because I've been using SyMenu for around 10 years now and have found Gianluca to be a great person to talk to who is very helpful and considerate of users needs. He has implemented many of my requests, which is a rarity, and as such, the SyMenu program has become easier to use, added functionality and bugs fixed. I love the program as it makes updating the library of apps that I have so much easier.

Due to this, I regularly help out by attempting to "recruit" developers to the cause. It's not a difficult task for each developer to update one small text file for each app they add to SyMenu, but for Gian to keep around 1000 apps updated regularly is a big task! There are some contributors, myself included, but none can match the scale of Gianluca's update list.

It is difficult to get developers to become a part of this work, but for such a small contribution, it makes many users lives easier.

I understand your hesitancy though, thank you for your time and honesty. All the best.

[KevinH]

As for leaving files all over the place, is that a Windows only issue? On MacOS, your app is stored in /Applications and your Preferences, Plugins, and etc are stored in ~/Library/Application Support/sigil-ebook. You would not want to store the Preferences, Plugins and etc in your app folder as then your would lose all settings across updates.

Removing those two will remove all traces of Sigil on mac (aside from mac created temp files and caches that are auto deleted periodically).

And I assume the Linux distributions versions track all the files they install and can handle updating and removing files as well.

So why is this perceived as an issue on Windows?

[sl23]

Originally Posted by KevinH

So why is this perceived as an issue on Windows?

I believe I already explained that above.

But, in more detail...
Filling Windows with files and folders increases the registry which, overtime slows your PC down.

I've noticed improvements since I started using portable apps over 10 years ago.

Not only that, I used to perform regular reinstallations of Windows, at present my current MSI laptop is a pain in the ass to do this on, when settings are stored in the registry and in system folders, all these are lost for every installed app on that system! Great fun reinstalling 50 odd apps and adjusting the settings to how you had them before!!!

SyMenu currently has 169 apps installed. If all those were installed traditionally and stored settings in system folders etc, That's a hell of a shit storm to sort out after a fresh Windows installation!!!

Besides that, I can just unplug my Hard Drive and connect to another PC, making transferring this whole setup a piece of cake when I get a new PC.

There are many benefits for PC owners having portable apps, but very few for traditional installation. Hence my request.

Remember, SPS files, once created, which I have supplied you with, only require the adjusted of three fields on every update. Probably easier than updating this website with the same info!

[DiapDealer]

Writing settings to the traditional application directory is actually frowned upon on Windows. So unless you're willing to educate your user base on how to install a program completely within their own userspace (something the vast number of Windows users have no interest in learning), the traditional Program Files directory is the best way to provide a hands-off installer for the users who have no need or want to investigate, choose, and implement what amounts to a third-party Windows software repository. Having the program's settings, preferences and add-ons write/install to AppData provides a way for users to maintain their settings across updates and even uninstalls. Remove a portable app's directory and all settings, preferences and addons are gone. If they're not, then they can't really claim portability, no can they?

The only registry entries Sigil makes on Windows are the uninstall entry (Add/Remove Programs) and the optional installation choice of whether or not to register Sigil as the default handler for .epub files.

Other than that: one program folder, one settings/preference/addons folder for Sigil on Windows. I don't think that's excessive.

The bottom line is that large-scale portability and third-party software repositories are a pipe-dream on Windows for all but the tweakers and fiddlers. Always will be. And Sigil already provides mechanisms for those same tweakers and fiddlers to take control of Sigil's installation/configuration through environment variables if they want.

So much like I'm not interesting in catering to FlatPak or AppImage on Linux, or homebrew on Apple, I'm not interested in catering to Chocolatey, PortableApps, or SyMenu on Windows. They have their work, and I have mine.

Happy to accept a pull request for a portable Windows solution that supports all of Sigil's current features (including bundled python and plugin framework) that doesn't interfere with the traditional install/update experience the vast amount of Windows users expect, and doesn't require me to maintain/update xml files that are not required for building/installing Sigil on Windows.

I'm not mad or offended, I'm just not interested. So this will likely be my final post on the subject.

[sl23]

Thank you for taking time to reply.

I understand what you're saying but the truth is that there are thousands of portable apps, quite likely equaling or exceeding "normal" apps. In fact, most freeware is actually portable, even many that come with installers.

The only portable app that causes a problem with updating and losing settings, out of the several hundred I have used, is Rainmeter. Because it includes, rather than creates it's settings file on install/unpacking. But SyMenu answers this too, by ignoring it on update. So the old settings file remains intact.

I don't claim to understand the ins and outs of installation vs portability, but in my experience, I see no reason to install anything if it can be made portable. The benefits of portable software far outweigh those for installation. Tbh, I don't even see a single benefit of installing over portability.

If you are willing to consider a portable solution, just do what others have done. How about if Sigil finds the "sigil-ebooks" folder within it's directory, it becomes fully portable?

I appreciate your reasons for turning down the SyMenu option, but thanks for reading, and thank you for supplying Sigil, even as it stands, it's one of those stand out apps that will likely be in high regard for many years.

[DiapDealer]

Sigil's configuration directory location is already fully configurable via the SIGIL_PREFS_DIR environment variable. That's how PortableApps creates their version of Sigil.

SIGIL_PREFS_DIR - Changes where sigil looks for and updates its user preference data. Needs to specify a full path in a directory where the user has write privileges.

[eschwartz]

The point of a portable app is to be able to take the settings with you wherever you go, which is directly not the point of a standard installation using AppData for settings as is right and just.

I don't see any point in catering to people who think it's somehow beneficial not list a program as installed... because some programs that aren't Sigil will sprinkle billions of registry values everywhere as a side effect of being installed.

Just install sensible programs like Sigil as normal. Or get a decent OS.

If every single boutique integration tool wanted its boutique manifest to be shipped inside the Sigil sources, there would soon he more third-party manifests than source code. These third-party tools need to either agree on some standard that developers can include once for everyone, or else they need to bite the bullet and do their own work.

e.g. the Linux ecosystem agreed to use XDG AppStream (*.metainfo.xml) and that's then processed by both flatpak and things like gnome software center to describe an application and generate summaries, previews, or search for/launch via GUI menu entries.

In one case, that's used for generating self-contained sandboxed installers built by and for the exclusive use of flatpak, in the other case it's used for the automatic indexing of thousands of software packages in a Linux distro and converting a command line package manager which only understands text names, into a fancy GUI package manager containing tons of metadata no Linux distro packaged would ever maintain themselves.