Seriousness What is it that makes us human?

Ea · 04-24-2009, 03:59 PM

Not even sure what I ask... I've been watching Blade Runner again. Anyway, to ask the question; why do you think you're human? How well does that argument hold up? And if not, what *do* you think you are?

DixieGal · 04-24-2009, 04:20 PM

Deleted because Friday never comes in the Conservatory.

No cannibalism allowed.

Ea · 04-24-2009, 04:24 PM

Well... That's an argument, I s'pose...

tirsales · 04-24-2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ea

Well... That's an argument, I s'pose...

Defining humanity based on taste? Oh well, theres no discussing taste.

Ea · 04-24-2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tirsales

Defining humanity based on taste? Oh well, theres no discussing taste.

Nooo... but we can still discuss differences of taste

pshrynk · 04-24-2009, 04:34 PM

Humanity is, first defined by genetics. 99% of everyone's genes are identical. So that's a place to start.

Next, is the cognition approach. We think and are sentient, therefore we get to define ourselves as human.

Then, there is the humor definition. By laughing, we are showing ourselves to be human. Just some thoughts.

DixieGal · 04-24-2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pshrynk

Humanity is, first defined by genetics. 99% of everyone's genes are identical. So that's a place to start.

Next, is the cognition approach. We think and are sentient, therefore we get to define ourselves as human.

Then, there is the humor definition. By laughing, we are showing ourselves to be human. Just some thoughts.

Maybe so, but each of your arguments applies also to chimps. I think I read that we share 97% DNA with them. They have the ability to make tools and wage war, so that shows intelligence. And they certainly laugh, showing much more gruesome teeth than even your current avator shows.

How about the ability to plan ahead? Or romantic love?

pshrynk · 04-24-2009, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DixieGal

Maybe so, but each of your arguments applies also to chimps. I think I read that we share 97% DNA with them. They have the ability to make tools and wage war, so that shows intelligence. And they certainly laugh, showing much more gruesome teeth than even your current avator shows.

How about the ability to plan ahead? Or romantic love?

But only 97%, not 99%, which is why I started there. Chimpanzees display the ability to pair bond, and definitely plan ahead.

Ea · 04-24-2009, 05:16 PM

As far as I understand (I'll find the refs if you need them) chimpanzees do have the ability to plan ahead - but do they know why it is important and meaningful? (to some humans?

And why IS IT is feels so nice to able to plan ahaed? (it feels nice to me)

DixieGal · 04-24-2009, 05:18 PM

How about religion being the defining characteristic?

Drats, it's time to go home now. Where is EA? He opened up this can of worms then vanished. EA, what's your thoughts here? (never mind, I was too slow)

Ea · 04-24-2009, 05:26 PM

Ea is me?? I assume - and I'm she!

Sorry, but I'll be going to bed soon, livin' in Europe an' all it's bedtime here for me.

Anyway I consider a religion an overall superficial characteristic of who you are. THere is more to who you are than your religion. OR yor religion define more than I expect

tirsales · 04-24-2009, 05:31 PM

Please - no considerations how equal two sets of genes are. All those comparisons I have read so far are BS (e.g. we have no complete high-quality assembly of either of those primates ...)

I dont think religion could be any mark for "human" - I am an atheist. Perhaps the ability to try to define "whats a human" is a human thing - most other animals simply recognize their spezies

Ea · 04-24-2009, 05:34 PM

I think we want to know: why do we think we think? What makes us conscious?

And why is that important?

LazyScot · 04-24-2009, 05:41 PM

Fascinating question!

I'd suggest reading "The Human Story" by Robin Dunbar -- unfortunately it's not available electronically as far as I know. One (of several) areas it touches on, that perhaps others more versed in the area can expand on, is the theory of mind or the levels of intentionality. E.g. I think is one level, I think you think, are two levels, I think you think I think are three levels and so on.

One of the fascinating, or perhaps worrying, aspects of this approach is that it then begs the question are infants humans, and the entire set of debates related to that and other similar issues.

In fact, there are very few definitions which don't, at least to some extent, identify some individuals as not human. To somewhat mis-use DixieGal's suggestion (with apologies) that humanity is defined by religion, does that mean that Richard Dawkins is not human?

tirsales · 04-24-2009, 05:45 PM

Well - crows for example do think "what do you think" (or at least they can extrapolate what other crows know. E.g. let them hide something to eat while another crow watches. Then remove this other crow - they will search another depot if (and only if) they believe the other crow watched them).
Its very difficult to define a difference between humans and other animals based on cognitive features - we simply dont know enough 'bout their cognitive features and some animals have quite a lot of them.

04-24-2009, 03:59 PM	#1
Ea Wizard Posts: 3,490 Karma: 5239563 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Denmark Device: Kindle 3\|iPad air\|iPhone 4S	What is it that makes us human? Not even sure what I ask... I've been watching Blade Runner again. Anyway, to ask the question; why do you think you're human? How well does that argument hold up? And if not, what do you think you are?

04-24-2009, 04:20 PM	#2
DixieGal Hi There! Posts: 7,473 Karma: 2930523 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Ft Lauderdale Device: iPad	Deleted because Friday never comes in the Conservatory. No cannibalism allowed. Last edited by DixieGal; 04-24-2009 at 04:38 PM.

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04-24-2009, 04:24 PM	#3
Ea Wizard Posts: 3,490 Karma: 5239563 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Denmark Device: Kindle 3\|iPad air\|iPhone 4S	Well... That's an argument, I s'pose...

04-24-2009, 04:34 PM	#6
pshrynk Beepbeep n beebeep, yeah! Posts: 11,726 Karma: 8255450 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: La Crosse, Wisconsin, aka America's IceBox Device: iThingie, KmkII, I miss Zelda!	Humanity is, first defined by genetics. 99% of everyone's genes are identical. So that's a place to start. Next, is the cognition approach. We think and are sentient, therefore we get to define ourselves as human. Then, there is the humor definition. By laughing, we are showing ourselves to be human. Just some thoughts.

04-24-2009, 05:16 PM	#9
Ea Wizard Posts: 3,490 Karma: 5239563 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Denmark Device: Kindle 3\|iPad air\|iPhone 4S	As far as I understand (I'll find the refs if you need them) chimpanzees do have the ability to plan ahead - but do they know why it is important and meaningful? (to some humans? And why IS IT is feels so nice to able to plan ahaed? (it feels nice to me)

04-24-2009, 05:18 PM	#10
DixieGal Hi There! Posts: 7,473 Karma: 2930523 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Ft Lauderdale Device: iPad	How about religion being the defining characteristic? Drats, it's time to go home now. Where is EA? He opened up this can of worms then vanished. EA, what's your thoughts here? (never mind, I was too slow)

04-24-2009, 05:26 PM	#11
Ea Wizard Posts: 3,490 Karma: 5239563 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Denmark Device: Kindle 3\|iPad air\|iPhone 4S	Ea is me?? I assume - and I'm she! Sorry, but I'll be going to bed soon, livin' in Europe an' all it's bedtime here for me. Anyway I consider a religion an overall superficial characteristic of who you are. THere is more to who you are than your religion. OR yor religion define more than I expect

04-24-2009, 05:31 PM	#12
tirsales MIA ... but returning som Posts: 1,600 Karma: 511342 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Germany Device: PRS-505 and Really not owning a PRS-700	Please - no considerations how equal two sets of genes are. All those comparisons I have read so far are BS (e.g. we have no complete high-quality assembly of either of those primates ...) I dont think religion could be any mark for "human" - I am an atheist. Perhaps the ability to try to define "whats a human" is a human thing - most other animals simply recognize their spezies

04-24-2009, 05:34 PM	#13
Ea Wizard Posts: 3,490 Karma: 5239563 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Denmark Device: Kindle 3\|iPad air\|iPhone 4S	I think we want to know: why do we think we think? What makes us conscious? And why is that important?

04-24-2009, 05:41 PM	#14
LazyScot DSil Posts: 3,201 Karma: 6895096 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Hants, UK Device: Kindle, Cybook	Fascinating question! I'd suggest reading "The Human Story" by Robin Dunbar -- unfortunately it's not available electronically as far as I know. One (of several) areas it touches on, that perhaps others more versed in the area can expand on, is the theory of mind or the levels of intentionality. E.g. I think is one level, I think you think, are two levels, I think you think I think are three levels and so on. One of the fascinating, or perhaps worrying, aspects of this approach is that it then begs the question are infants humans, and the entire set of debates related to that and other similar issues. In fact, there are very few definitions which don't, at least to some extent, identify some individuals as not human. To somewhat mis-use DixieGal's suggestion (with apologies) that humanity is defined by religion, does that mean that Richard Dawkins is not human?

04-24-2009, 05:45 PM	#15
tirsales MIA ... but returning som Posts: 1,600 Karma: 511342 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Germany Device: PRS-505 and Really not owning a PRS-700	Well - crows for example do think "what do you think" (or at least they can extrapolate what other crows know. E.g. let them hide something to eat while another crow watches. Then remove this other crow - they will search another depot if (and only if) they believe the other crow watched them). Its very difficult to define a difference between humans and other animals based on cognitive features - we simply dont know enough 'bout their cognitive features and some animals have quite a lot of them.