Ayn Rand

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Patricia

How strange. In my philosophy department our main political philosophy course covered both Locke and Robert Nozick, (who both argued for a minimal state) as well as the other main political philosophies.

Patricia, let me be a little more specific. In the state school I went to, Locke was covered, the same as the Founding Fathers of the American Republic were covered, as historical events, with only a cursory relevance to current events/concepts/worldviews.

There was no analysis of what current (and by current I mean in the previous 20 years or so) government decisions did to the social/political/economic environment (both good and bad). All actions end up with unintended consequences (including no action at all), and teaching people to look for them, and include them in the cost of the decisions made, to be able to evaluate whether or not a decision was sucessful, or needs to be either revised or eliminated or even expanded upon, strikes me as important, no matter what the decision is made.

What I got instead was practical methods and techniques of implementing laws and building consensus for gaining electoral power. Certainly not something an "educated" citizen would need to ably exercise his franchise, unless his goal was to be a corrupt politician.

Of course, I was dealing with Political Science, History, ans Economic classes, rather that philosophy class. There I was able to take logic classes, so I could concentrate on other, tougher courses. (I was a pre-med/molecular biology student, at a time when 4 ot of 5 qualified student didn't get into Med school. The competition was intense.)

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by Sonist

No offense, but this statement betrays utter ignorance of history.

And some of the rest of your statements betray simply ignorance ("... forced to consider her "point of view" just because the parents of american teenagers complain when Rand isn't part of the curriculum...??!!!")

Why is it that you are so hell-bent upon "proving" my (utter?) 'ignorance'?

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

Yes, And arguing "for" "Marx" (or really stalinism) used to get you in lots and lots of trouble before that. I'd rather be in a re-education camp than in McCarthy's prisons, thank you very much.

I'm assuming you mean Joseph McCarthy's prisons. What prisons? Can you describe them, and/or locate them? I'm quite serious.

I can point out many re-education camps. And mass graves....


This is not to deny that HUAC (which was separate from Joseph McCarthy's hearings) cut off certain people's way of earning an income. Was this better or worse that the Japanese American internment camps? Or limiting Jewish immigration from Germany before 1939? Or....

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

Why is it that you are so hell-bent upon "proving" my (utter?) 'ignorance'?

I suppose I am somewhat "hell-bent," as an "atheist capitalist."

But I am not "proving" anything. I am merely pointing to the evidence....

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I'm assuming you mean Joseph McCarthy's prisons. What prisons? Can you describe them, and/or locate them? I'm quite serious.

I can point out many re-education camps. And mass graves....


This is not to deny that HUAC (which was separate from Joseph McCarthy's hearings) cut off certain people's way of earning an income. Was this better or worse that the Japanese American internment camps? Or limiting Jewish immigration from Germany before 1939? Or....

We're all, as British or Americans on very shaky ground when it comes to the examples you're citing. We British (as a a nation state) instituted the concentration camp and were responsible for mass slaughters across several continents during our Empire. The Americans, famously, interred their Japanese-American population during WWII and lest we forget the whole genocide of the Native populace. And if we go even further we'll see that the American Nation, especially its corporations were inexorably linked with the death camps of the Nazi's (the kind of corporatism and capitalism that prompted the Cocal Cola company to invent Fanta because they couldn't make a profit from Cola in Nazi Germany).

Mcarthyism did not only 'deprive people of an income', it forced many into exile to avoid imprisonment, most famously being Ring Lardner Jr, the Screenwriter. There were plenty of imprisonments during the HUAC, only not of the highly public figures. A Witch hunt isn't really a Witch hunt if when you find the Witch you don't do anything with her now, is it?

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by Sonist

I suppose I am somewhat "hell-bent," as an "atheist capitalist."

But I am not "proving" anything. I am merely pointing to the evidence....

Because God forbid you say anything substantive..?

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I'm assuming you mean Joseph McCarthy's prisons. What prisons? Can you describe them, and/or locate them? I'm quite serious.

Please tell me what you call what happened to the Dixie Chicks in 2004.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

Please tell me what you call what happened to the Dixie Chicks in 2004.

They were put in prison for espousing Marxist beliefs? Really? I didn't know that.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

Because God forbid you say anything substantive..?

Please tell me what you call what happened to the Dixie Chicks in 2004.

This is what they said'

"During a London, England concert ten days before the 2003 invasion of Iraq, lead vocalist Maines said, "we don't want this war, this violence, and we're ashamed that the President of the United States is from Texas" (the Dixie Chicks' home state).[2] The statement offended people who thought it rude and unpatriotic, and the ensuing controversy cost the group half of their concert audience attendance in the United States and led to accusations of the three women being un-American, as well as hate mail, a death threat, and the destruction of their albums in protest.[3]"

Here is the link to the Wikipedia article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Chicks

Now. They were in London and made what I consider a disgusting remark. You may think what you like about your country, but anyone with any loyalty at all will not show such disrespect in another country.

What happened? Their sales dropped, and their careers almost bombed.

I believe that was because most citizens of this country truly felt they were in the wrong. Radio personalities can harange all they want......if the majority doesn't agree, nothing will happen.

I think in this case the majority felt they were wrong.

[Moejoe]

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

Thats bs.

Without patriotism, what do you have?

A country with no unified purpose.

Citizens with no common cause to pull for.

What is your answer? Perhaps one world government?

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Thats bs.

Without patriotism, what do you have?

Europe?

EDIT: Oh and the patriotism quote was from Samuel Johnson.

EDIT 2: And it also seems, and I may be making cultural stereotypes here, that Americans are far more vociferous in their proclamations of Patriotism. Whereas over here, the UK, and I would assume most of Europe, that kind of exuberance would label the owner as a bit of a loony or, more than likely, a fascist. Not making any judgments here, just stating how it is over here in Europe.

For instance, the waving of a British Flag/Showing a British Flag outside your house has for a long time hinted at leanings toward the right wing and fascism. As with Religion, most British citizens are pretty much indifferent when it comes to patriotism. Its more of a shrug of the shoulders reaction, unless its the footie -- then you'll see some ridiculous patriotism from usually rational and intelligent people.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

We're all, as British or Americans on very shaky ground ...

Nobody is perfect. One can cite atrocities perpetrated by EVERY group of people, during all of known history.

Frankly, while war and conflict are never pretty, generally well trained, orderly armies, like that of the US, are less likely to inflict indiscriminate damage and suffering. They also generally have fairly well established mechanisms for dealing with atrocities committed by their own soldiers (which also means, that they are more likely to make such atrocities public.)

But I trust, that you would not equate the death and suffering of those who were sent to the gulags, with the fate of the communist sympathizers ("useful idiots") under McCarthy's persecution (my God, Lardner even had to live in England for a couple of years!)

BTW, the opening of recent Soviet archives, as well as the Venona Papers, showed, that some of those blacklisted, did indeed work for the Soviets. So much for the Rosenbergs movie....

As Ayn Rand herself put it: "Their purpose [of the Soviet-sponsored communists] is to corrupt non-political movies – by introducing small, casual bits of propaganda into innocent stories – and to make people absorb the basic premises of Collectivism by indirection and implication."

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

We're all, as British or Americans on very shaky ground when it comes to the examples you're citing. We British (as a a nation state) instituted the concentration camp and were responsible for mass slaughters across several continents during our Empire. The Americans, famously, interred their Japanese-American population during WWII and lest we forget the whole genocide of the Native populace. And if we go even further we'll see that the American Nation, especially its corporations were inexorably linked with the death camps of the Nazi's (the kind of corporatism and capitalism that prompted the Cocal Cola company to invent Fanta because they couldn't make a profit from Cola in Nazi Germany).

Mcarthyism did not only 'deprive people of an income', it forced many into exile to avoid imprisonment, most famously being Ring Lardner Jr, the Screenwriter. There were plenty of imprisonments during the HUAC, only not of the highly public figures. A Witch hunt isn't really a Witch hunt if when you find the Witch you don't do anything with her now, is it?

And how did the Japanese respond? They joined the military in droves, and proved to be some of the most loyal Americans around.

As for the native population, really, "whole genocide"? That would mean there were none around. Interesting.

Ever heard of the Navajo Code talkers?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker

Now, there has to be something about a country that inspires such loyalty.

I won't even try to respond to the link between American corporations and the Nazi concentration camps. I feel dirty just reading that.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

Because God forbid you say anything substantive..?

Buh, there is no God....

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

...Please tell me what you call what happened to the Dixie Chicks in 2004.

Uhm, how did you put it exactly? Was it: "Because God forbid you say anything substantive..?"

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Moejoe;508473 And if we go even further we'll see that the American Nation, especially its corporations were inexorably linked with the death camps of the Nazi's [COLOR="Red"

(the kind of corporatism and capitalism that prompted the Cocal Cola company to invent Fanta because they couldn't make a profit from Cola in Nazi Germany).[/COLOR]

Couldn't make a profit? They couldn't make the PRODUCT. Different animal entirely. So what were they suppose to do, roll over and die? No, they figured out another way to make money. What a concept!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanta