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Old 11-09-2010, 04:24 PM   #46
Nathan Campos
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Finally! I'm wondering how it will be...
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Old 11-09-2010, 04:59 PM   #47
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Personally, I'll wait for Mirasol.
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Old 11-09-2010, 05:29 PM   #48
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Personally, I'll wait for Mirasol.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-20006737-56.html

Not a bad product but to my eye the colors do not appear any more vivid.
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Old 11-09-2010, 06:42 PM   #49
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They'll probably be able to do it in their native market. I suspect they'll see sales over here as gravy.
What are sales like for expensive luxury widgets in China? Remember all those Chinese ereaders that debuted at CES then never saw the light of day?


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For most applications, "ballpark" matching should be adequate. For instance, how many people can see the difference between 16 bit and 32 bit color on a display?
It's pretty obvious to anyone who works with colour professionally. Apple's tried to get away with 16bit laptop LCDs in the past and there was an outcry. If all you care is that reds don't look green, then I'm sure colour eInk will be fine.
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Old 11-09-2010, 06:57 PM   #50
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What are sales like for expensive luxury widgets in China? Remember all those Chinese ereaders that debuted at CES then never saw the light of day?
The Chinese market is expanding like the proverbial house on fire. When you have a population of 1.3+ billion, it doesn't take a lot of penetration to have a successful product.

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It's pretty obvious to anyone who works with colour professionally. Apple's tried to get away with 16bit laptop LCDs in the past and there was an outcry. If all you care is that reds don't look green, then I'm sure colour eInk will be fine.
If you work with color professionally (and I have), it's an issue. If you just want to read material that includes color, it may not be.

The question here is whether the color is "good enough". Without seeing a device like this up close and in person, I can't say. I suspect it wouldn't be good enough for me, but I don't assume I'm representative.
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Old 11-09-2010, 06:57 PM   #51
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Thanks, that makes more sense than what I was speculating, i.e. placing black/white, black/red,... balls in pixel patterns.
Though likely way more expensive, I'd think using different colored balls in the cells would make for more contrast and brightness than using filters.
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:12 PM   #52
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Though likely way more expensive, I'd think using different colored balls in the cells would make for more contrast and brightness than using filters.
I wonder how the filters work, actually. Since this is a layer on top of a b&w eink screen, seems like it can only degrade b&w contrast, and can only increase energy requirements. Is it reflective LCD or what? When the device sleeps, does it turn off also?
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:42 PM   #53
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The way I imagine it is having a framed newspaper clipping, and laying a piece of colored film on top of the glass. Without the film, white light hits the paper and bounces back with a certain efficiency. Add a colored filter, and only the red (or whatever) fraction of light passes through to be reflected. You're losing most of the light, so adding filters reduces brightness, just like sunglasses do. But the screen under the filter is the same as always, so it's bistable and will show the last screen even without power, and power requirements are no higher, and it's not LCD. A colored screen will look darker than a b&w one, though, so you might want more light to read by.
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Old 11-09-2010, 08:33 PM   #54
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The Chinese market is expanding like the proverbial house on fire. When you have a population of 1.3+ billion, it doesn't take a lot of penetration to have a successful product.
The fact is that eInk ereaders turned out to be the great joke of CES 2010. The Chinese market sold 300,000 ereaders in 2009, but despite all the hopeful talk many makers, such as EDO and Foxit, had pulled out of the ereader market by the middle of 2010. Next year's craze will be tablets for web-browsing, not exactly a good fit for eInk, even with colour.

Hanvon's big enough that it can afford to take a punt on colour eInk, but they'll be lucky to cover their costs domestically.

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The question here is whether the color is "good enough".
No. brecklundin's point was that he needed "accurate" colour.
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Old 11-09-2010, 09:36 PM   #55
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I wonder how the filters work, actually. Since this is a layer on top of a b&w eink screen, seems like it can only degrade b&w contrast, and can only increase energy requirements. Is it reflective LCD or what? When the device sleeps, does it turn off also?

which is why they waited until they got the contrast of the b & w film higher before marketing the color Vizplex wasnt high enough. They feel that Pearl is. Im sure timing has much to do with it as well. Perhaps Pearl is "good enough" to start color with because they dont want to wait any longer to prove they can do it.
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Old 11-10-2010, 12:16 AM   #56
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Rather dismissive to overlook reference and other non-fiction books which require color? The reader announce is an ~10" reader which, while not ideal for those books, it's a huge leap over a 6" panel. We need 11"-12" panels to really make it reasonable and w/o scaling or layout issues.
I think 11" or 12" panels would make e-readers significantly less convenient to carry around. I'm in a special situation, because I'm in a wheelchair and would find rolling around with something that size difficult (whereas I could put a Kindle 3 in my backpack fairly easily), but I think the (non-DX) Kindles and Nooks of the world are closer to a size that someone would want to carry. And too much smaller than that, and you run into readability (as in, not being able to read enough at once) problems. (I know a lot of people read on their iPhones and other phones, but from what I understand, they do this in short bursts, and do their "main" reading on an e-reader or computer screen).
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Old 11-10-2010, 05:20 AM   #57
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I think 11" or 12" panels would make e-readers significantly less convenient to carry around. I'm in a special situation, because I'm in a wheelchair and would find rolling around with something that size difficult (whereas I could put a Kindle 3 in my backpack fairly easily), but I think the (non-DX) Kindles and Nooks of the world are closer to a size that someone would want to carry. And too much smaller than that, and you run into readability (as in, not being able to read enough at once) problems. (I know a lot of people read on their iPhones and other phones, but from what I understand, they do this in short bursts, and do their "main" reading on an e-reader or computer screen).
First, there is almost no difference between a 5" reader and a 6" reader...lots of folks love them for the superb portability. You might look at the Pocketbook 360 with it's integrated hard shell cover to protect the panel and eliminating the need for a overpriced cover. Seriously, had I not bought my K2i for a net $159 thanks to a $100 Amazon credit with an Audible subscription, I would have bought the PB 360 instead. It might be a nice fit for you.

As for small reading like a phone...I have two devices I have used for years, both about 4" LCD devices, a Sony Clie nx73v PDA and a Nokia N800 4.3" device. Both are wonderful for reading on for hours on end. I really like the Clie because it has a transflective LCD which means it is perfectly readable in direct sun though not as readable as the Vizplex and forward panels, still it's fine. Plus the PDA might actually be the best designed device I have ever used for recreational reading thanks to auto-scrolling and a very innovated "jog wheel" to let you control the speed on the fly as you read all while holding it on one hand. And it is around 6-yrs old now. I bought it used for $16.

For my needs mentioned in my post, it has nothing what so ever about a pocket sized reader. Everyone already has a portable reader. The "burden" you seem to perceive of a 12" device seems trivial to 2-3 boxes of books weighing in at that the 200-300lbs I mention. I have no issue with a large format reader's portability I already use a 17" laptop for everything so trust me, a 12" device is nothing. The current 10" panels are NOT large format, they do not even come close to being transparently useful for these references. I was not stating the 11"-12" panels should be the only ones made.

While I completely understand you need more portable devices and have a problem with large readers for carrying them around, those already exist...so who cares? So there!! neenerneer...hehehe.

It's not like color will come ONLY to larger readers. Nor will a 12" panel device be made for a while yet, but once the color jinni is out of the bottle the other sizes will flow. The content dictates the size panel needed to use the material effectively and a 9.7" panel is quite honestly not in the ballpark. In matter of fact a 9.7" panel is about the size of a trade paperback which simply is not workable for 90% of the books I use on a regular basis. Nobody creates reference/research books that small, there are a few but not enough to matter.

My comment is that there are books which, based on the subject matter, simply cannot be scaled down to a panel that is smaller than the content area of each existing print versions. I am even removing the margins in the print versions as margins on a reader don't need to be as large as printed material. My references would need a 14" panel if the same printed margins were included in ebook versions (that is the diagonal of an 8.5"x11" page including margins of course). But without margins the scaling would be reasonable for an 11"-12" panel. There was a reason the Que (not pure vaporware but close) was a 14" panel and it would have sold well if they ironed out the software and ability to write notes within documents. If that size was in color I would jump on it were the color mature enough to give at least 16M colors but 32-bit color is what I really need as part of information references I use impart is accurate colors used for what I do...and small variations matter. I don't need video, but I do need color as accurate as possible. And so would millions of other potential users. It is just something that if you need it you know and understand but if you don't need it then you will never understand.

I re-read this and it sounds far harsher than intended...perhaps it's because it is such an old discussion. So many seem to assume that ONLY small readers make sense. They simply do not, in fact the lack of color full page size readers is holding back million of potential ebook sales annually. So don't take the somewhat terse tone of my response as personal...it's just it's that people need to think beyond recreational reading of novels as the end all purpose of ebook devices. Also there exists a finite-infinite number of existing PDF documents which will never be reformatted for smaller panels while people really need access to in our daily lives. This last was a need the Que was attempting to fulfill.

Many of us genuinely need a reader that goes beyond the current recreational readers which simply do not cut it for other types of content due to the small panel size let alone lack of decent color.

But something else readers need beyond even color, real software on the devices. We need a library management as well as a research tool to aid in using multiple open books/papers to create cross references and manage notes. Software such as Evernote and OneNote are close to what would be perfect if they added the ability to manage a reading library on the device or elsewhere. Right now the only devices which work OK, not perfect would be a tablet PC and those are nice but there are simply not enough users of those devices to entice publishers to create ebook versions. Though the Nook software as well as the Kindle4PC (or whatever OS) go a long way to help. it is just neither app is designed for anything beyond recreational reading but that is where the ability run something like OneNote or EverNote makes a true PC the best current option. Problem is the tablets are expensive. A $300-$500 reader device would be a much easier pill to swallow. I can buy a ton of books for the price difference.
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Old 11-10-2010, 05:21 AM   #58
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The way I imagine it is having a framed newspaper clipping, and laying a piece of colored film on top of the glass. Without the film, white light hits the paper and bounces back with a certain efficiency. Add a colored filter, and only the red (or whatever) fraction of light passes through to be reflected. You're losing most of the light, so adding filters reduces brightness, just like sunglasses do. But the screen under the filter is the same as always, so it's bistable and will show the last screen even without power, and power requirements are no higher, and it's not LCD. A colored screen will look darker than a b&w one, though, so you might want more light to read by.
I remember that a few months ago, at a trade show, E-ink showed a prototype of their post-Pearl screen technology, which will offer far better contrast, around 20:1 if I remember well. Obviously they will use that in their color screens, which is why in the spec sheet of Triton the contrast is the exact same (10:1) as in the spec sheet of Pearl, despite the three added color filters:
http://www.eink.com/sell_sheets/trit...ll%20sheet.pdf
http://www.eink.com/sell_sheets/pear...ll%20sheet.pdf
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:45 AM   #59
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Competitors can certainly come closer on hardware. Apple isn't doing anything there that can't be done by others, and at comparable or cheaper prices.

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9,7" capacitive multitouch IPS screen in a aluminium frame with 10+h of usage time @ 700grams.

That's a spec that I haven't seen on another tablet yet for 500 dollars. ifixit said materialwise it'd cost 250 dollars.
The galaxy tab with lesser material amounts to 280 dollar.

Besides that Apple probably bought out all production capabilities for 9,7" screens for this and next year, it's pretty hard for a competitor to match that price.
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:15 AM   #60
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try this, the HP 500 Slate vs. iPad...and while I feel it's a couple hundred too high, it's a stark contrast to the IpAD as it's certainly an actual REAL COMPUTER for less than the best ipAd

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en...0-4332585.html

And it's real...yes batter life is not ideal but there are likely extended life battery options...it fits the need of a very large part of the slate pc user segment.

Engadget review:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/21/h...#disqus_thread

I would still prefer a 12" panel but maybe they too are waiting on Mirasol...or I am not sure why freak Pixel Qi is not gaining traction. Someone needs to be first...

My point in posting this is that if ereader device makers don't vastly improve their underlying OS and software, it will be devices like this Slate PC that will grab the business, academic as well as home researcher. People today are sort of tired of work around and as a productivity tool a 9"-12" slate with a Wacom or N-trig digitizer is a winner if it has specs at least as good as the the HP 500. But as I said already it's not perfect but for me it would be a better option now than an iPad.

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