Is DRM in ebooks a big issue? - Page 4

Steven Lyle Jordan · 01-21-2009, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Lester

You guys are now responsible for an advanced case of Pastaphobia.

Pastaphobia?

Pastafazool! No wonder I had that attack of the shivers the last time my wife took me to Olive Garden! (and I thought it was the sausage.)

kazbates · 01-21-2009, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Care to suggest a few of those "new ideas?" You may find, if you look deep enough, that most of them have also been discussed ad nauseam around here... I've even started some, and gotten slapped around in these forums for days for my trouble... but if you have an idea we haven't covered, by all means, get it out there!

As a relative newbie, I am grateful for the rehashing of many of the topics regarding DRM, downloads, etc., as I was not around during previous discussions. Since many people received new readers over the holidays, I am sure I am not alone in feeling this way.

So, thanks Steve and others for reviewing these topics.

Although it may seem tired and redundant to some, you never know when these new discussions might help spark a solution!
Kaz

Xenophon · 01-21-2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Pastaphobia?

Pastafazool! No wonder I had that attack of the shivers the last time my wife took me to Olive Garden! (and I thought it was the sausage.)

Does this mean you're unlikely to convert to Pastafarianism?

Xenophon

bill_mchale · 01-21-2009, 01:29 PM

You know, the concept of licensing media and software in the United States is at times a very questionable practice. While in software, it is often enforced through technical measures, it calls into question the whole doctrine of fair use. Of course, one could claim that the license constitutes a contract between the provider of the license and the purchaser, but ultimately, how freely is the contract entered into?

--
Bill

HistoryWes · 01-21-2009, 01:31 PM

DRM is an issue for me, but not because I want to keep my books forever, though I do. My real problem is the inability to edit the metadata so that I can keep my library the way I like it. I also hate having to use more than one program to integrate all my books. I firmly believe that DRM will be gone before we know it. The anger and frustration it causes the customer will not offset the loss of revinue for the publishers that it might prevent. We already see the music industry moving away from it. Booksellers will eventually follow suit.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 01-21-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenophon

Does this mean you're unlikely to convert to Pastafarianism?

Oh, that would mean abandoning the teachings of my True Sensei, the Man of Six Aspects and One Face, aka The Individual, and I cannot do that.

pilotbob · 01-21-2009, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazbates

Although it may seem tired and redundant to some, you never know when these new discussions might help spark a solution!
Kaz

The solution is to have affordable easy to find ebooks in a standard format with no DRM. That is pretty much a given. This has been proven in the digital music market place.

BOb

Steven Lyle Jordan · 01-21-2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

You know, the concept of licensing media and software in the United States is at times a very questionable practice...

Quote:

Originally Posted by HistoryWes

DRM is an issue for me, but not because I want to keep my books forever, though I do. My real problem is the inability to edit the metadata so that I can keep my library the way I like it...

Both of these issues illustrate the fact that software purchase and use is really not the same as buying and using a typical physical product. The problem is twofold: Consumers want software purchasing and use to be like buying and using a typical physical product, because they understand and are used to that; and sellers are too afraid to alienate customers by trying to make the reality clear to them.

The reality is that the consumer's rights vis-a-vis any purchased products are very limited, even to what they are considered allowed to do for themselves. In many cases, these limitations are not particularly bothersome--who gets really upset over the fact that they are not allowed to xerox and resell a printed book?--and so are not considered worth fighting over.

But in the case of electronic media, many things that are possible are also easy, making consumers more willing and interested in doing them. And by nature, anything that prevents a person from doing something easy is considered bad simply because it hinders you... the easier the task, the more heinous the block. (And by corollary, the more heinous the block, the more satisfying the breaking of that block. Ask any pirate.)

DRM, in theory, is NOT BAD. It's not immoral, unnatural, or illegal. It is especially not so when it is affixed to a product that you do not, in fact, have to buy. It's no worse than wanting a car that only comes with fob-operated doors. DRM is simply a sales contingent that the purchaser is free to purchase and thereby accept, or not purchase and thereby decline. If you decline it, you are free to try to (legally) obtain the product without the DRM you don't want, or with a different DRM that you are okay with. Or, you can advise the seller that you won't buy their product unless they change or remove the DRM, and hope they will accommodate you.

But ultimately, since it is your choice to say "yes" or "no," DRM is rendered a feature, no more or less, and no more or less important. It's not a vital organ... take it or leave it.

I believe there can be acceptable forms of DRM (which is not to say there are any, just that I think it's possible). But using them requires an effort by the seller to educate its buyers, and make them appreciate why their DRM is worthwhile (or at least not worth being concerned about). iTunes manages to do this... cable TV manages to do this. So it's not impossible.

Sweetpea · 01-22-2009, 04:58 AM

After replying on another thread (where I asked if there was actually a list of countries were DRM removing is legal), I went in search of such a list.

Then I thought of the "home copy". We pay a certain amount of money for every single medium we buy (tapes, CD's, DVD's, HD's, SD's, etc) on top of the product price because of the "home copy".

According to our law, we are allowed to create a few copies (notice the few!) of copyrighted material, provided it's only used for use (either practice, study or personal) by the one that makes the copy or orders the copy made.

Some interresting facts:

* you are only allowed to create a few copies (it's not specified how many a few is)
* you are only allowed to use those copies yourself, for practice, study or personal use
* you are allowed to tell others to make the copy (except for music)
* you don't have to be the legal owner of the material

That last point is interesting, naturally.

Say, I have a friend that has a music CD. I am allowed to borrow that CD from him and make a copy of it (for personal use, naturally).

There are also a few categories where a home copy is not allowed (or only partly so).

You are allowed to make a copy of a computer program, but only if you're the rightful owner (so no copying from a friend)
You are not allowed to make a copy of a construction (what! you're not even allowed to put that building in a copier!)

Books also have a different rule: you are allowed to make a copy, but generally only parts of it. Unless it is out of print and reprints are not longer expected. Naturally, these too are for home use only.

Now, add to this the DRM stripping. According to this law I should be allowed to strip DRM from a music file (I bought it, so, I should be able to make a home copy), but not from books, unless they are out of print.

Law is confusing!

Matt Horne · 01-22-2009, 05:34 AM

Its not a issue as long as you can Un-DRM it

Ea · 01-22-2009, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

...
According to our law, ...

I'm curious; where do you live?

Sweetpea · 01-22-2009, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Ea_

I'm curious; where do you live?

the Netherlands.

HarryT · 01-22-2009, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HistoryWes

DRM is an issue for me, but not because I want to keep my books forever, though I do. My real problem is the inability to edit the metadata so that I can keep my library the way I like it.

This is not an issue with all DRM formats. Eg, with MobiPocket books, the metadata is stored separately from the book's text, so that one can edit the metadata of even DRM-protected books.

Quote:

I firmly believe that DRM will be gone before we know it. The anger and frustration it causes the customer will not offset the loss of revinue for the publishers that it might prevent.

I must respectfully disagree - I don't think the overwhelming majority of eBook readers give a damn about DRM, judging from the success of machines like the Amazon Kindle. Customers want convenience and ease of buying books, and that's what the Kindle provides, DRM and all.

pwalker8 · 01-22-2009, 07:56 AM

Harry,
That's a bit like saying that since iTunes is such a success, there is no way the music companies will remove DRM from music. Any retailer will tell you that a good merchant will try to remove as many barriers to purchase as possible. That's one of the reasons that Apple pushed the music companies so hard on DRM and eventually got them to agree to it's removal.

I agree with you that people will go for convenience and ease of buying over DRM, but I would also point out that the DRM on the kindle is easy to bypass (with the exception of the topaz format books), so those who want to can remove the DRM. iTunes also gave the ability to bypass DRM by burning the music to cd and then ripping it as DRM free. I doubt many people did this, but I suspect that having that safety net available helped convince more than a few people to go ahead, pull the trigger and buy.

HarryT · 01-22-2009, 08:14 AM

I take your point, but I really do wonder how many people actually care about such things. I strongly suspect that the overwhelming majority really don't give two hoots about it - they just want to be able to conveniently buy a book and read it. We, on this board, certainly aren't representative of the "typical" eBook reader!

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01-21-2009, 01:29 PM	#49
bill_mchale Wizard Posts: 1,451 Karma: 1550000 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Maryland, USA Device: Nook Simple Touch, HPC Evo 4G LTE	You know, the concept of licensing media and software in the United States is at times a very questionable practice. While in software, it is often enforced through technical measures, it calls into question the whole doctrine of fair use. Of course, one could claim that the license constitutes a contract between the provider of the license and the purchaser, but ultimately, how freely is the contract entered into? -- Bill

01-21-2009, 01:31 PM	#50
HistoryWes Teacher/Novelist Posts: 632 Karma: 2274466 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Nevada Device: Nook STR, iPad	DRM is an issue for me, but not because I want to keep my books forever, though I do. My real problem is the inability to edit the metadata so that I can keep my library the way I like it. I also hate having to use more than one program to integrate all my books. I firmly believe that DRM will be gone before we know it. The anger and frustration it causes the customer will not offset the loss of revinue for the publishers that it might prevent. We already see the music industry moving away from it. Booksellers will eventually follow suit.

01-22-2009, 04:58 AM	#54
Sweetpea Grand Sorcerer Posts: 9,707 Karma: 32763414 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Krewerd Device: Pocketbook Inkpad 4 Color; Samsung Galaxy Tab S6	After replying on another thread (where I asked if there was actually a list of countries were DRM removing is legal), I went in search of such a list. Then I thought of the "home copy". We pay a certain amount of money for every single medium we buy (tapes, CD's, DVD's, HD's, SD's, etc) on top of the product price because of the "home copy". According to our law, we are allowed to create a few copies (notice the few!) of copyrighted material, provided it's only used for use (either practice, study or personal) by the one that makes the copy or orders the copy made. Some interresting facts: * you are only allowed to create a few copies (it's not specified how many a few is) * you are only allowed to use those copies yourself, for practice, study or personal use * you are allowed to tell others to make the copy (except for music) * you don't have to be the legal owner of the material That last point is interesting, naturally. Say, I have a friend that has a music CD. I am allowed to borrow that CD from him and make a copy of it (for personal use, naturally). There are also a few categories where a home copy is not allowed (or only partly so). You are allowed to make a copy of a computer program, but only if you're the rightful owner (so no copying from a friend) You are not allowed to make a copy of a construction (what! you're not even allowed to put that building in a copier!) Books also have a different rule: you are allowed to make a copy, but generally only parts of it. Unless it is out of print and reprints are not longer expected. Naturally, these too are for home use only. Now, add to this the DRM stripping. According to this law I should be allowed to strip DRM from a music file (I bought it, so, I should be able to make a home copy), but not from books, unless they are out of print. Law is confusing!

01-22-2009, 05:34 AM	#55
Matt Horne Member Posts: 14 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jan 2009 Device: Sony Reader 505	Its not a issue as long as you can Un-DRM it

01-22-2009, 07:56 AM	#59
pwalker8 Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,195 Karma: 70314280 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Atlanta, GA Device: iPad Pro, iPad mini, Kobo Aura, Amazon paperwhite, Sony PRS-T2	Harry, That's a bit like saying that since iTunes is such a success, there is no way the music companies will remove DRM from music. Any retailer will tell you that a good merchant will try to remove as many barriers to purchase as possible. That's one of the reasons that Apple pushed the music companies so hard on DRM and eventually got them to agree to it's removal. I agree with you that people will go for convenience and ease of buying over DRM, but I would also point out that the DRM on the kindle is easy to bypass (with the exception of the topaz format books), so those who want to can remove the DRM. iTunes also gave the ability to bypass DRM by burning the music to cd and then ripping it as DRM free. I doubt many people did this, but I suspect that having that safety net available helped convince more than a few people to go ahead, pull the trigger and buy.

01-22-2009, 08:14 AM	#60
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	I take your point, but I really do wonder how many people actually care about such things. I strongly suspect that the overwhelming majority really don't give two hoots about it - they just want to be able to conveniently buy a book and read it. We, on this board, certainly aren't representative of the "typical" eBook reader!