Robustness

[JimLL]

The Sigil development blog site apparently allows no input from users. So how do they get feedback?

At that site they say a lot is going into the next version.

If any developer is looking I BEG you to put in LESS new stuff and debug the old stuff.

Three times I have worked for hours on a book (my own private ebook) and had Sigil just crash on me - trashing EVERYTHING I had done.

Come on! Are there no backup saves happening so Sigil can recover itself from a crash or at least have saves of the HTML? Why is that a huge no no? Its in there. SAVE IT!! That isn't hard to program you know. Just save it for crying out loud.

Why have hundreds of features if you lose the work you are attempting to do with those features?

To be useful, Sigil should be robust, not quirky like it is. Fix the font handling so the display doesn't show one thing five different ways, depending on some weird format applied to a small (or large) section without user approval.

You want donations? DEBUG IT! Don't want donations? Leave it flakey while you pile on lots of Hot/New.

[bobcdy]

As one who has used Sigil nearly from the beginning, I've been very impressed with recent version - it's far more enjoyable to use, and far less quirky and more robust than the earlier versions.

I find in my work, that I prefer to do most of my xhtml coding & editing in Word 2010 and UltraEdit 17 with as much error-correcting performed in these edits as possible. Then I copy/paste the file into a Sigil template epub containing no text but already containing the required css file. At this point I save the new epub with a different name and proceed to apply the finishing touches to the epub in Sigil (always with Tidy turned off!) Sigil quickly catches any xhtml errors in the imported document and I correct these errors and also correct the errors in my UltraEdit html file. Occasionally Sigil does crash but this presents no critical problems because I periodically save the file, and if a really major problem develops in the Sigil version, I can copy/paste the corrected UE17 file back into the Sigil template epub and start over in Sigil.

With this approach I've never encountered any problems such as you seem to be encountering.

[Toxaris]

You can always press the save button of course. Why does everything has to have an autosave? Remember those old Sierra Adventures? The pesky 'Remember, save early, save often!' after you just died.

Crashes are hard to avoid sometimes and even harder to debug. Don't forget, it is the work of very few people with limited resources. They do this in their free time. Handling these kind of files with big chunks of text and S&R is complex.

Also, some things are out of their control. In order to have it cross-platform (think about it, that is quite unusual), some generic libraries and environment have to be used. There aren't that many cross-platform development environments available. The QT-framework is one of the few that is actually workable.
That does result in that all bugs in the framework are present. There are some serious issues with the rendering engine with regards to fonts and certain layouts. That is unavoidable and outside of their control to fix.

Font handling is not complex, but a very precise job. You really have to take care that you do it correct. That is not Sigil's fault, that is up to you to do correctly.

Nobody forces you to use it. At the moment it is the best software for the job. All the new features are actually requested by the users. Am I annoyed when it crashes? Sure I am. However, I usually can predict when it happens. When I do a big cut/past or complex S&R I always save beforehand. It is only a mouse-click away...

[DiapDealer]

The Sigil development blog site apparently allows no input from users. So how do they get feedback?

Did you miss the "Issues" tab on the website? Where users can post defects and enhancement requests?

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Did you miss the "Issues" tab on the website? Where users can post defects and enhancement requests?

And this forum is a main feedback route. Polite posts are best.

Dale

[JimLL]

Originally Posted by Toxaris

You can always press the save button of course.

Pressing the save button gets me an error saying HTML cannot be saved.

Why does everything has to have an autosave?

So you can concentrate on your work. I was writing auto saves 20 years ago.

Remember those old

I do all I can to forget old...

Also, some things are out of their control. In order to have it cross-platform (think about it, that is quite unusual), some generic libraries and environment have to be used.

Back in the day, we wrote low level routines for stuff that couldn't be done with half dozen layers of libraries.

Font handling is not complex, but a very precise job.

How many font variations do you think there are in today's world? Hundreds - maybe thousands.

Nobody forces you to use it.

Ah, where have I heard that before?

When I do a big cut/past or complex S&R I always save beforehand. It is only a mouse-click away...

The only thing a mouse cluck away is epub, apparently one of the lowest level ebook formats around and it tends to lose stuff I want kept. Sigil needs an HTML save. Epub is not the base of ebooks - HTML is.

Of course it is possible to do an HTML save if you have time to highlight endless pages of it and save it to a file. Autosave IS needed.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by JimLL

Autosave IS needed.

I'm not opposed to an autosave feature. It's not something I would personally use—so I certainly wouldn't want it to be default behavior, but it would make sense as an opt-in feature. But regardless, you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

[JimLL]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I'm not opposed to an autosave feature. It's not something I would personally use—so I certainly wouldn't want it to be default behavior, but it would make sense as an opt-in feature. But regardless, you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

And the honey would be? Saying Sigil is working just super when it isn't? It's buggy. Is that my fault?

[JimLL]

Originally Posted by bobcdy

I find in my work, that I prefer to do most of my xhtml coding & editing in Word 2010 and UltraEdit 17...

Is UE17 wysiwig or do you have to be an HTML expert?

Starting with complete documents requires conversion to HTML since Sigil requires it, and I'm not having much luck with conversion software. Does UE17 do conversions?

I copy/paste the file into a Sigil template epub containing no text but already containing the required css file.

Is there a place where this template process is explained step-by-step?

Thanks

I can copy/paste the corrected UE17 file back into the Sigil template epub and start over in Sigil. With this approach I've never encountered any problems such as you seem to be encountering.

I've had one paste problem. When I paste in a "piece" it comes up with weird (usually bold) fonts, etc., and the only way I can handle it is to go over the inserted section with the un-formatting tool - one para at a time.

Maybe it needs to be un-formatted from doc before I screen copy it...

[DiapDealer]

And the honey would be? Saying Sigil is working just super when it isn't? It's buggy. Is that my fault?

Never mind then. If you were indeed writing autosaves twenty years ago, you should have little trouble grabbing Sigil's source and creating your own solution.

[JimLL]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Never mind then. If you were indeed writing autosaves twenty years ago, you should have little trouble grabbing Sigil's source and creating your own solution.

That's very, very sweet of you to say, even honey-like, but 20 years ago I hadn't had a stroke.

[bobcdy]

JimLL,
As far as I know, there is no really basic introduction to using Sigil, and I think I understand your frustration. For example, from experience, I know that Sigil cannot save html files, but rather only epubs. So when you've worked on a document in Sigil, when you decide to save you MUST save as epub with your chosen name. Thus the reason your saves did not work is that you were trying to save as an html file.

My suggestion is to learn by doing - start on a really simple document - perhaps only one paragraph using a text editor such as Open Office that creates nice html file from a wysiwig text containing italics, bold-face, etc. Import that into Sigil and work on it until you understand how Sigil is set-up. You'll need a css file eventually as part of the Sigil document and you can download a few epubs from MR and open and study them in Sigil as examples of coding and of css. With more experience you might eventually want to learn simple xhtml coding and not rely on an editor to do all your formatting - you don't need great skill with html coding unless you are working an a really complexly formatted document, and there are lots of intro material on this on the internet.

Good luck with your efforts!

[theducks]

Silgl is for creating EPUB.
HTML input is a acceptable source for EPUB, but the edits will will make it into EPUB (all wrapped up in the proper container)

[Toxaris]

If you get a warning that the file cannot be saved, your ePUB has structural errors which needs to be solved first. Sigil does not allow saving structurally incorrect ePUB. That is a design choice and I think that is a very good one. You have the responsibility to make sure that the structure is correct, since you determine that via you XHTML. Sigil tries to help you with Tidy, but that is not always a good help.

Regarding using libraries... Back in the day cross platform compiling was not possible. You had to invent everything anew on each platform. Even the programs from 'back in the day' evolved into object oriented programming. It has faults, but more merits.

Again, font-handling is not complex but a precise job. The actual font included is not really important. So the fact that there are thousands of fonts is not relevant. The method remains more or less the same.

I think you need to read up on what ePUB exactly is and how it is structured. You keep referring to HTML, but in reality it is XHTML with CSS if you want. That is not the same, although very alike. Sigil can import HTML and convert it into XHTML, but expect some post-processing depending on the source.
A lot of people use the template idea. I also use it. I just have a small ePUB with only some basic xhtml files like the cover and titlepage and a default stylesheet. Not that it is required, but I don't want to import these every time. It saves a little time. Creating a template like that is easy. Open Sigil, import the files and save. If you get an error, read the error message and solve it.

If you just want to create an ePUB and don't really care about what is going on and how it looks, use another tool. If you want full control of your ePUB, use Sigil.

You can request as a feature an autosave of course. I know many programs that don't have an autosave feature and I don't miss it. I have a tendency to save on a regular base. After all, Ctrl+S is a very difficult keystroke to remember...

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JimLL

Pressing the save button gets me an error saying HTML cannot be saved.

Yes--because Sigil does NOT save html. If you are determined to "only" work in html, then you should be using a plain old html editor, doing your html work in that, and then importing your html into Sigil. Sigil is not an "html" editor; it is an ePUB creation tool that ONLY saves ePUBs. This means nothing more than you have to save it ONCE, as an ePUB, and then continue on, hitting save whenever you wish.

The only thing a mouse cluck away is epub, apparently one of the lowest level ebook formats around and it tends to lose stuff I want kept. Sigil needs an HTML save. Epub is not the base of ebooks - HTML is.

Of course it is possible to do an HTML save if you have time to highlight endless pages of it and save it to a file. Autosave IS needed.

Actually, xhtml is the "basis" of ePUBS. Again, if you are, for some inexplicable reason, bound and determined to "only" work in html, instead of tweaking your xhtml in Sigil, then use something designed for it, like NoteTabPro, which is simple, elegant, and designed for the purpose, and has extensive additional clip functionality that should not be underestimated. You seem to think that by saving your basic file as an ePUB, you're crossing some Rubicon from whence you can't return, even though ePUB is your goal. What you're asking for is a fundamental change (guys: he's not asking for AUTOSAVE, per se; he's asking for AUTOSAVE AS HTML, not the same thing, as we all know) in how Sigil works. "Auto-save" has nothing to do with it; you're asking that Sigil save an input file AS HTML, instead of as an ePUB, and that, quite simply, is not what Sigil does. It's an ePUB-creation tool, not an html editor. I think you fundamentally misunderstand its intention and functionality, if you are trying to "save html" from within Sigil. You're making it unnecessarily hard on yourself.

Use a decent html editor like NTP, or a freebie, edit your html THERE, where you can save it as html and be happy, and use Sigil for what it's designed for: making ePUBs in xhtml. Coming on here and blasting Sigil for not autosaving in a format that is it not intended nor designed to save in the first places just seems a little counterproductive.

Hitch