Anonymity in Best Novel MobileRead Polls

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Lynx-lynx

Paul, are the Moderators able to see the names of the voters when the poll itself does not disclose them?

The ordinary moderators (like me) are not able to do so. But clearly some record is kept of who has voted in the poll, so that you cannot vote twice. And even if the names for individual votes aren't recorded, checking logs would be sufficient for the owner to be able to work out who voted for what. But it's certainly anonymous for anyone except the owner, i.e. Alexander Turcic.

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

It is off topic so I won't add any more except to suggest that if people want to pursue the subject of anonymity perhaps remove it from this thread by starting another, then point me to it via a PM and I will try to help that thread along by explaining how it was proven in another very large international forum, aimed at participants in another recreational pastime, how easy it is to break presumed anonymity and how the breaking of anonymity had led to the abuse of "victims" in their private life.

Now I have to decide what book in each decade to vote for - thanks pdurrant. But I see many are still pushing for its being public so I may hold off doing so for a while.

An excellent suggestion. I will add one last comment, that once a poll has been made anonymous, it's not possible for the moderators to turn off the anonymity. So once a poll is anonymous, that's not going to change.

[EDIT: Discussion moved to its own thread. Feel free to continue.]

[gmw]

I'm not particularly worried about anyone trying stack the votes. I mean, I guess it's possible, but I can't really see why anyone would bother. My own preference for wanting an open vote is merely for my own interest and convenience. The blind totals aren't going to be that interesting to me. But I don't care enough that I would try to hold the voting process to ransom by saying that I won't vote unless it's open.

I can fully appreciate that there are some polls where people may want to have their votes remain anonymous. But, as I said in my earlier post, these polls are not really any different to writing your recommendation in a post. Do you object to doing that? If not, why is a vote different to a post to the same effect? What purpose is served by making it less convenient for those interested in identifying who liked which books?

If it was feasible, it would be interesting to run a study to try and work out how open vs closed votes affected the outcome in such innocuous votes as these. There are lots of possible influences. Are people more honest or less honest when their votes are anonymous? Are a significant number of people put off from participating in open votes? ... But I'm not sure how such a study could be done with any reliability in this context.

[Lynx-lynx]

Paul a couple of comments about this thread.

The current thread name isn't accurate in as much as the chat was directly about voting in the Best Book of 1901-1910, and not MR in general. Could you please change the thread name.

And aren't threads of this nature usually in the Feedback Forum rather than the Lounge?

Edt
Thank you for changing the thread title.

[eschwartz]

Like Lynx-lynx, sun surfer, issybird, etc... I simply don't understand why on earth people would want to deprive themselves of a large part of the whole point of having these polls.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by GA Russell

I enjoy seeing who voted for what in the monthly book club polls.

There are a number of folks here whose opinion I respect, and I am curious when they vote for various books.

Actually, Catlady, you're one of them! When you make up your mind, would you mind PMing me what you've decided?

Well, thank you for that! I feel rather wishy-washy about these early-in-the-century polls. Either I've never read the books or I read them long ago and they made only a very slight impression on me. In the first poll I will probably vote for your selection, The Virginian, mostly for the influence it had in popular culture, or else Anne of Green Gables.

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I am sorry that a side issue has distracted from the discussion of the nominated books. I am clearly not going to be able to please everyone, but to try to get as many people participating as possible, I have decided to make the voting threads anonymous.

Of course, people are welcome to make their voting intentions known in this discussion thread, if they wish. Which may be better, as then they can talk about why they've chosen a particular book, if they so wish.

For me making the poll anonymous will make it less interesting and useful. I also don't really understand what the concern of those who would refuse to have there online handle here associated with such a vote is. I wonder if those who are so reluctant to have there votes public ever buy books online, say from Amazon? Still this is probably the wise move to prevent the enterprise being derailed.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by gmw

...But, as I said in my earlier post, these polls are not really any different to writing your recommendation in a post. Do you object to doing that? If not, why is a vote different to a post to the same effect? What purpose is served by making it less convenient for those interested in identifying who liked which books?...

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

...I also don't really understand what the concern of those who would refuse to have there online handle here associated with such a vote is. I wonder if those who are so reluctant to have there votes public ever buy books online, say from Amazon?...

The following is not specifically aimed at you gmw and Hamlet53, but what you have said, which is a view held by others, provides a point to launch from for a general response from my point of view.

What is being done, in my view, is some are assuming that they understand the needs of others with respect to their privacy better than those others do themselves. And they do so without apparently realizing that by quizzing those who consider they have privacy needs, they are seeking further information that may very well be private, or compromise privacy too. So the privacy seeker either does not respond (and so may be rashly assumed to have no reasons at all) or else gives some response that does not reveal the actual truth.

I mentioned earlier I could relate the experience of another large international forum where abuse external to the forum itself occurred. When that occurred and the subject of anonymity was discussed there was the same reaction by some, as here, in that they considered they had the right to know what others were doing/thought (and even who they were, there were many claiming that there should be no anonymity) and that at least the forum should be oriented towards that; if that restricted the ability of those who sought anonymity to take part in some aspects of normal forum activities, well that was just too bad.

There were even some who went so far as to claim that posters should be required to identify themselves to all, if not by name then at least by IP address (which, of course, may not be static). There were many who thought that those who sought anonymity could have no rational reason for doing so and so were likely to be unsavory in some way e.g. posting with multiple identities. Many thought that members should be required to provide detailed profiles of themselves; location, employment type, club memberships, etc.

First, how easy is it to identify a regular poster even if they have taken care to protect their identity? A member of the forum who himself kept a very public profile but respected the rights of others to not do so (he was also well known to the forum owners), challenged posters in his own country that he could prove that he could identify many of them and did so with volunteer quinea pigs who thought that they were anonymous. Of course he did not publically name them but PM'ed them. He had a very high hit rate getting to actual names, or else getting so close that it was clear that a little extra work other than from behind his keyboard, would clinch it (I know some of the methods he used and can elaborate a little if asked).

Second, why should anyone want to protect their identity. Two reasons came to light; those who were abused outside of the forum (e.g. in writing, anonymously of course , or in at least one case vandalism), and some who had their businesses abused. For the first case, the victims were generally people who were either very knowledgeable about the forum's interest subject, or who stated strong (often well informed) views in "lounge" type threads.

For one of the business cases I knew the victim so he was able to tell me what had happened; he was a very active poster but produced quite innocuous posts, very pleasant natured person and having just a general knowledge of the forum's interest subject, so quite ordinary. He owned a restaurant and he suddenly started getting a stream of negative comments about its food and service on internet restaurant review sites. It turned out that these were coming from a couple of malicious forum members who had never even visited the restaurant (they were identified because, like many such types, they could not keep their mouths shut and someone was then able to snitch on them). I was able to see these reviews for myself (apparently they are pretty much impossible to get removed).

There was really nothing much that could be done about it all apart from some bans (one assumes to be resurrected under different user names ), people becoming far more aware of what can go wrong, and the criticism of those accused of "hiding behind anonymous user names" abated. Interestingly, in that forum there had always been a general expectation that forum polls would be confidential.

Note, I am not claiming that anything of the sort is happening here. However, I have seen it happen in an unexpected place. Nor am I claiming that the possibility of abuse is the only rational reason for some to wish to protect their privacy in some way, there are others (for me, just as if I was at a social function, even their just saying "I do not wish to say" is ample reason).

Out of that and other experiences, I accept without question if someone wants to protect their identity. Whether the reason in their own particular case is rational or not, or even anything to do with the forum itself (e.g. the poster may have had an unhappy experience after a public show of hands in a union, club, etc.) I do not consider it my business to question. What I do know is that there are many reasons and that is all that matters. To question people as to their reasons, as far as I am concerned, is just further invading their desired privacy on the matter.

Some can continue to claim that their right to know what other posters would rather keep private apart from perhaps letting trusted friends know (e.g. what their favorite book is from a particular decade) is the superior position. However, I take a different stance, nosiness of the type "I want to be able to see what specific other people have voted for, even if they rather I did not know" is never superior, and quizzing them on their reasons for privacy is abuse.

[eschwartz]

I am trying very hard to see your comparison, but I am afraid I just don't quite get it.

We are voting about our favorite books. In the Reading Recommendations forum.

I think it is reasonable to expect that people who are going there to advocate their Best Of books, would and should interact with people in the process. If I were posting about a book I liked and suggested others should read, I would not demand MobileRead hide my username by that post.

I humbly posit that the entire point of such a poll is in order to share with other people. It is difficult to do that when one is arbitrarily getting all inscrutable.

I believe we should follow the example of the Book Club.



To be honest, I am completely baffled at why anyone would WANT to hide their vote. Why would they even bother to vote anyway, in that case?

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I am trying very hard to see your comparison, but I am afraid I just don't quite get it.

We are voting about our favorite books. In the Reading Recommendations forum.

I think it is reasonable to expect that people who are going there to advocate their Best Of books, would and should interact with people in the process. If I were posting about a book I liked and suggested others should read, I would not demand MobileRead hide my username by that post.

I humbly posit that the entire point of such a poll is in order to share with other people. It is difficult to do that when one is arbitrarily getting all inscrutable.

I believe we should follow the example of the Book Club.



To be honest, I am completely baffled at why anyone would WANT to hide their vote. Why would they even bother to vote anyway, in that case?

Perhaps you should not be reading my post as being a comparison, but rather be reading it as one giving examples of the type of experiences that may make some posters wary in forums and elsewhere. Such experiences elsewhere, which can involve polls/voting (I mentioned unions and clubs), may just result in a conditioning that leads one to make a general rule of never voting when ones own vote is visible. Also the reading is that I, for one, am not prepared to make judgments about nor question any particular poster's decision regarding their own privacy.

In the end, if you are baffled, I suspect that you will remain so.

A small point of clarification: nowhere have I meant to infer that, as you state, if a user should make a post about a book that they are entitled to demand (or expect) their username to be hidden. For myself, I have openly posted about some of the nominated books, however, if the poll was to be public I would not be voting, and if it were to be private I may not be voting for the books I have discussed. Sorry if that, as I suspect it will, increases your level of bafflement .

[gmw]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

The following is not specifically aimed at you gmw and Hamlet53, but what you have said, which is a view held by others, provides a point to launch from for a general response from my point of view.[...cut for brevity only...]

Thanks for your response, but it doesn't really help me much. I have already admitted that I understand people wanting anonymity in some polls, what I have trouble understanding is why these polls (in which voting has essentially the same effect as a post saying "I liked book x")?

I am familiar with how metadata can be used to extract identifying information. But in this case we don't appear to be asking for any metadata not otherwise accessible. (I suppose it might be harder to write a script to pull out everyone's preferences from posts and identify them all. But I could, if I wanted track down one individual, easily use existing features on this forum to discover if a person had made other book recommendations, along with everything else they may have accidentally given away in posts.)

It is possible, I suppose, that some people who never post about book preferences might be willing to give those preferences on an anonymous vote. I imagine this forum is like most I've been on, where there are many more viewers than there are active participants, so there could be many such people. Maybe we need another (anonymous) poll asking users if they participate on polls even if they rarely post messages. I find this a bit amusing because these are names I would be ignoring anyway, I'm only interested in those that I'm familiar with from their active participation on forum. (My minor amusement should not be taken as derogatory. I accept that some prefer to remain anonymous, and that the best way to do that is to avoid posting messages, it's hard to say anything meaningful without giving things away. It is more of a wry acknowledgement of the contradictory situation that all communities face.)

[John F]

Edited/deleted.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

[pdurrant]

Please remember the posting guidelines, especially the first.

[Lynx-lynx]

Has voting openly one decade and secret voting the next decade been ruled out?

It's a solution that meets the interests of both polarities at least alternately.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I am trying very hard to see your comparison, but I am afraid I just don't quite get it.

We are voting about our favorite books. In the Reading Recommendations forum.

I think it is reasonable to expect that people who are going there to advocate their Best Of books, would and should interact with people in the process. If I were posting about a book I liked and suggested others should read, I would not demand MobileRead hide my username by that post.

I humbly posit that the entire point of such a poll is in order to share with other people. It is difficult to do that when one is arbitrarily getting all inscrutable.

I believe we should follow the example of the Book Club.



To be honest, I am completely baffled at why anyone would WANT to hide their vote. Why would they even bother to vote anyway, in that case?

Except people should always have a right to privacy and they shouldn't have to explain that to anyone. I had a friend who was stalked one time. Being able to remain anonymous even on a poll gave her a sense of control. Sure, it's nice if everyone wants to chat and whatnot, but if someone wants to remain anon, it shouldn't be looked down upon or judged. Let it be. There are many reasons to remain private.

Also, as for cheating, I used to run cover polls on my blog before a new release. I didn't even think to mark "vote only once." Well, good grief. I had people voting 20 times! So I marked "can only vote once." Next thing I knew people were writing to tell me they went to the library so they could log on there and vote again!

Not that it matters to me overmuch. The polls were in good fun. But some people do get invested in their own choices. Shrug. I don't judge that either. It's generally not going to throw things off by much and many times you can tell the votes are stacked and account for it when trying to tally the results.

[pdurrant]

For those wishing anonymity, you could PM me your vote and I could vote for you using my moderator powers, so that your user name didn't appear in the vote. You wouldn't, of course, be anonymous to me, but would that be sufficient anonymity to allow you to take part if the vote wasn't generally anonymous?