HTML TOC listed in .ncx?

[Notjohn]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Personally, I could do without an HTML ToC listing "Chapter 1, Chapter 2, Chapter 3". Which is what so many of them are...

The worst offenders include the Daniel Silva books, which I adore. Mr Silva thinks that fifty chapters is about right for a short thriller. The TOC goes on for three "pages."

Stephen King is a minor offender in comparison -- but Mr King has actually played about with e-book publishing, so he should know better than to offend at all.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

The worst offenders include the Daniel Silva books, which I adore. Mr Silva thinks that fifty chapters is about right for a short thriller. The TOC goes on for three "pages."

Stephen King is a minor offender in comparison -- but Mr King has actually played about with e-book publishing, so he should know better than to offend at all.

The worst offender is James Patterson. The latest Women's Murder Club book has 104 chapters. His books don't do section breaks. He just does another chapter instead.

[theducks]

L. E Modesitt jr routinely has 150+ (and in Roman Numerals)

I wish there was a tool that could create optional layouts when it is just numbers

1 2 3 4 (just let it wrap)

<space>1 10 20 30

[DiapDealer]

I don't see why a long html toc should bother anyone that much, really. Every single page of an html toc offer a ridiculous number of easy ways to get away from it. Then you never have to see it again if you don't want to. It's not like anyone has to thumb through all the toc pages or anything. Sure, I don't really need them, but it's not like they're putting me out, or anything.

[eschwartz]

"I could do without it", yes. I didn't mean to imply that my life was ruined by their presence.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

"I could do without it", yes. I didn't mean to imply that my life was ruined by their presence.

I wasn't singling anyone out, really. It just surprises me that anyone cares enough to have a "worst 'offenders'" list with regard to HTML Tables of Content. Half the time, I couldn't tell you if the last book I read even had one or not. Preference is one thing, but it seems that some allow their very existence to ruin their day or something.

[eschwartz]

Ah. (Well, I think I kind of prompted that discussion, anyway. )

I certainly don't remember which ones do, I just have these vague memories that there are a bunch of them.
I agree it seems to be a silly stat to track.

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I agree it seems to be a silly stat to track.

I wonder if there's a direct correlation between too many chapters and too many adverbs?

BR

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I wasn't singling anyone out, really. It just surprises me that anyone cares enough to have a "worst 'offenders'" list with regard to HTML Tables of Content. Half the time, I couldn't tell you if the last book I read even had one or not. Preference is one thing, but it seems that some allow their very existence to ruin their day or something.

Diap:

Well, the biggest issue surrounds the LookInside. If a publisher puts a 105-chapter TOC at the front--specifically if those are excitingly named "Chapter 1, 2, 3..." it can cause prospective buyers frustration, as they scroll, scroll, scroll...

And, FWIW, @Wolfie, dear, Patterson's using something nearly identical to what we do for those clients facing that issue--a shortened TOC at the front of the book. I don't know who's borrowing from whom. ;-)

So, back to the issue at hand: Amazon will get very, very pissy if you don't have an html.toc. Period, end statement, here endeth the lesson. (Trust me: really pissy.) Ergo, not optional.

Hitch

[brahms]

Thanks again.

No doubt about it the ToC looks dreadful at the start of a novel unless the chapters have fancy names. It looks especially bad if you do the right thing and put your publisher info at the back and start with a title page before chapter one.

But i take the point. A shame that Amazon get sniffy when they only highly recommend rather than ,making a html toc a requirement.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Diap:

Well, the biggest issue surrounds the LookInside. If a publisher puts a 105-chapter TOC at the front--specifically if those are excitingly named "Chapter 1, 2, 3..." it can cause prospective buyers frustration, as they scroll, scroll, scroll...

Point taken. But I still think it's a little silly to get frustrated by scrolling, scrolling, scrolling through a long list of contents when clicking/tapping on Chapter 1/Prologue will end that particular misery with very little pain at all. Existential crisis averted. But I realize you have to consider ALL prospective buyers, and not just the relaxed, reasonable ones who don't think a free sample (or the front-matter of a purchased book) should necessarily need to conform to their every desire.

[eschwartz]

Actually, the free sample is noticeably smaller in that case.
As in, there isn't any/much actual story by which to evaluate the book.

Thus negating the reason for having a LookInside in the first place.

[DiapDealer]

Hey, I'm just trying to get a feel for what the actual objection is.

Is it the lengthy scrolling (that no one really has to put themselves through), the "unprofessional" aesthetic of it being placed where ToCs have always been placed, or the "devaluation" of the free sample?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Hey, I'm just trying to get a feel for what the actual objection is.

Is it the lengthy scrolling (that no one really has to put themselves through), the "unprofessional" aesthetic of it being placed where ToCs have always been placed, or the "devaluation" of the free sample?

I'd say all three, my sweet. (Grrrrr....when I find whoever it was that told me this Mathias Ergo Pro was FABULOUS, I'm going to sic the flying monkeys on him....sorry for the non-sequitur).

Remember, in the Look Inside, you can't really click around the TOC. So, you do end up scrolling quite a bit if it's an uber-long TOC. In the sample, rather, yes: you can click and jump, at least, within the length of the sample.

And yes: if you have a big honking long TOC on a short book (does that ever happen?), it can take up a valuable piece of the real estate, so to speak, in the Look Inside/Sample.

I don't know about the "unprofessional aesthetic." I'm perfectly content, as a reader, with the TOC where it's always been. {shrug}.

And, lastly, no matter what I think, Amazon speaks, I obey. :-) {Ahem. Well, at least, most of the time...}

Hitch

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Remember, in the Look Inside, you can't really click around the TOC. So, you do end up scrolling quite a bit if it's an uber-long TOC.

No need to click around, clicking the first chapter/prologue will generally get you extremely close to where you (rhetorical) want to be.

Originally Posted by Hitch

I don't know about the "unprofessional aesthetic." I'm perfectly content, as a reader, with the TOC where it's always been. {shrug}.

Same here, I was being a little facetious.

Originally Posted by Hitch

And, lastly, no matter what I think, Amazon speaks, I obey. :-) {Ahem. Well, at least, most of the time...}

Oh, I understand. Gotta do what you gotta do. I'm just more amused by the consumers this whole thing might annoy. Especially since I find that the ones who are more vocal about these kind of things are typically the ones who crack all their books open upon purchase and format them to their exacting standards anyway. Everyone else just reads the book.