Seriously thoughtful Amazing...

[Over]

...in the most negative way. Good job, Microsoft (and any other companies that explore cheap labour)

http://www.nlcnet.org/reports?id=0034

[ardeegee]

I once made a comment about 3rd world child labor to a (probably illegal) immigrant that I was friends with work--from Mexico and before that, Honduras. He made a comment that I'll always remember-- that they were "working for their living." He was positive about it. If someone quits one of those jobs, there is a line a dozen (or more) deep for each position for people eager to replace them.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

If someone quits one of those jobs, there is a line a dozen (or more) deep for each position for people eager to replace them.

So that makes it OK?

[HarryT]

But what are you comparing it with? In a country like China, you need to compare the standard of living of a worker in such a factor with that of a peasant farmer, because that is still the way that the typical Chinese citizen makes their living. You certainly can't compare it with living standards in western Europe or the USA.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But what are you comparing it with? In a country like China, you need to compare the standard of living of a worker in such a factor with that of a peasant farmer, because that is still the way that the typical Chinese citizen makes their living. You certainly can't compare it with living standards in western Europe or the USA.

I don't really follow the logic - I think comparing the living standards of the worker in a Chinese factory to those of the European/US factory worker when they used to do the job is enlightening (and depressing).
I'd expect workers round the world to have the same relative standard of living for doing the same work - a pipedream though, I admit.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

I don't really follow the logic - I think comparing the living standards of the worker in a Chinese factory to those of the European/US factory worker when they used to do the job is enlightening (and depressing).
I'd expect workers round the world to have the same relative standard of living for doing the same work - a pipedream though, I admit.

No, I agree with you, but the important phrase in your message is "relative standard of living" - ie relative to the norm in that country. One would expect a factory to pay comparable wages to other factories doing similar work in that country. Labour costs do of course vary dramatically across the world.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

I don't really follow the logic - I think comparing the living standards of the worker in a Chinese factory to those of the European/US factory worker when they used to do the job is enlightening (and depressing).
I'd expect workers round the world to have the same relative standard of living for doing the same work - a pipedream though, I admit.

A better comparison is what the conditions in Chinese factors are now and what they were in Europe at the beginning of the industrial revolution. Just as Europe (and America) started with nothing and had to work their way up, so will China. The location of the cheap labor keeps shifting over time-- Japan used to be where the cheap, low quality crap was made. Now they have grown into high-paid, skilled work so the crap jobs have shifted elsewhere. As the standards in China grow, the jobs will shift to sub-Saharan Africa. It will be a long time before we run out of people desperately scratching out a minimal existence from constant back-breaking subsistence-level farm work who dream of being lucky enough to get an assembly line job earning a few bucks a day.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

...It will be a long time before we run out of people desperately scratching out a minimal existence from constant back-breaking subsistence-level farm work who dream of being lucky enough to get an assembly line job earning a few bucks a day.

It might be people in Europe and the US after sub-Saharan Africa. There are masses of people here waiting for their jobs to come back on the globalisation merry-go-round.

[Over]

We must remember that Microsoft is not Chinese, so it's unethical for a foreign country to explore anothers' weakness.

Anyway, with relativism we can excuse anything, so we shouldn't go down that road.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by Over

We must remember that Microsoft is not Chinese, so it's unethical for a foreign country to explore anothers' weakness.

Anyway, with relativism we can excuse anything, so we shouldn't go down that road.

Read this:

http://www.newint.org/issue292/thank.htm

[HarryT]

That's a very thought-provoking article. Just goes to show that even the best-intentioned ideas can harm the very people they are intended to help.

[Delta Tango]

It seems that the author of the first article has some kind of grudge against Micro$oft, but the working conditions in some remote factory are not Microsoft's fault.
It's all supply and demand. A company requires a product to be made and factories offer their services. The one with the cheapest offer (or the one with the best balance of price and quality, depending on what kind of product the company wants its name on) gets the contract.
The company, which in this case happens to be Micro$oft, doesn't care what are the working conditions in that factory, not should it be held responsible for the treatment and pay the workers receive.
It is up to factories and the workers themselves to work out a solution that is acceptable for all and the legislation should be there to make sure it is "humane" or whatever you want to call it.

Look at it this way:
If you need to buy something you'll scout the market and probably find exactly the same product being priced differently in two stores. Of course you'll buy from the cheaper one.
Can you be blamed? Of course not. Why would you pay more if it's not necessary?
But by choosing the cheaper store, you encourage lower wages for the store workers.
The fact that this worker didn't produce that item, doesn't really matter, he or she produces a service which you buy, just like big corporations buy services of item production and, just like you, they search for cheapest source.

So, do you lose sleep over the fact that you try to save a buck or two every time you buy something?

Edit to add:
I'm not going to comment on child slavery other than to say that there are plenty of international organizations that are founded to combat it. The question isn't why child slavery happens, it's why is it tolerated by those noble organizations. (note sarcasm)

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Delta Tango

Look at it this way:
If you need to buy something you'll scout the market and probably find exactly the same product being priced differently in two stores. Of course you'll buy from the cheaper one.
Can you be blamed? Of course not. Why would you pay more if it's not necessary?
But by choosing the cheaper store, you encourage lower wages for the store workers.

Not necessarily. Maybe you encourage lower wages for management. Or more efficient administrations methods, so less money is lost on paperwork. Or cheaper rent for the location. Or better sources, with less layers between the store and the original source.

Farmers' markets often have cheaper vegetables than the supermarket, because they're not adding layers of packaging, shipping & storage costs. Big factories can often produce cheaper products than small ones, even with labor at the same price, because some costs are better absorbed by the constant activity in a large factory and some labor expenses are reduced by assembly lines, even if you pay the workers the same amount per hour.

Lower cost per item for the consumer doesn't have to mean "the workers got screwed over." It can mean " this was produced in a way that avoided waste."

[Over]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Read this:

http://www.newint.org/issue292/thank.htm

This is not just a matter of child labour, but also the conditions for it.

I understand those children would have to work at home in the fields or even need the money they earn for their own susteinance...

Yet, we can't just enter in a vicious circle here. Just because you can't fix something, it doesn't mean you can try to at least profit from it. I don't agree with the expression "if you can't beat them, join them".

Fair payment, decent shift times, health and safety work conditions, etc. At least that! Child labour != Child exploitation/slavery.

Microsoft isn't to blame? Of course they are. They should know what they are employing.

In these last years, people are getting more conscious about how "green" the products are. Even paying a little bit more for a better quality envorinment friendly product.

It would be nice something like that, but for "child slavery-free" products.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by Over

Microsoft isn't to blame? Of course they are. They should know what they are employing.

They know. And so do all companies that use this method to lower their costs. It's called capitalism.