Unutterably Silly Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ellison

[Moejoe]

Just watched, well, watched it last night, a documentary from 2008 on Harlan Ellison. It's called Dreams With Sharp Teeth if anyone is interested (although why I watched it I don't know, I can't stand the litigious little goblin*).

Here's a clip:



*Tycho

[Donnageddon]

Abrasive as Ellison can be. I find him to be a damn fine writer, critic and anthologist.

I just would not want to get on his $h!t list.

I will be searching out this documentary. Thanks Moejoe!

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Donnageddon

Abrasive as Ellison can be. I find him to be a damn fine writer, critic and anthologist.

I just would not want to get on his $h!t list.

I will be searching out this documentary. Thanks Moejoe!

For me he fails on every level, and he especially fails when he starts grabbing at female hosts on award shows, the sexist little pig.

[Donnageddon]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

For me he fails on every level, and he especially fails when he starts grabbing at female hosts on award shows, the sexist little pig.

He failed at grabbing the host?

[mtravellerh]

Harlan says that this was not meant as any form of sexual assault, but that he grabbed Connie Willis' breast only as some kind of childish revenge for earlier disrespectful behaviour towards him!

Oh, and take good care lest you be sued!

[Donnageddon]

Ah, I get it! Willis got on Ellison's $h!t list.

Don't do that!

Other than that caveat, Damn fine writer, critic, humanist, and anthologist.

But I would never presume to apologize for his private life.

[Greg Anos]

There are many creative artists who, as people, I would rather drop off the high end of a tall building. I don't let that prevent me from respecting their creative output, if justified.

I have the feeling, like the movie Charade, a lot of people are going to make sure Harlan's dead, after he dies....

[Moejoe]

Why you're all here and I assume fans of Ellison, can anybody explain why he's so respected? I watched the documentary, I've read some of his works, and the combination of both is like adding rat poison to overly strong coffee.

What is it that lets you divorce his persona from the writing? Is there some trick I'm just not aware of? I feel the same way about Orson Scott Card too, I just can't read the books of a man who is so openly antagonistic to the gay, lesbian and bisexual communities.

[Donnageddon]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

the combination of both is like adding rat poison to overly strong coffee.

So you have read ""The Beast that Shouted Love at the Heart of the World"

What is it that lets you divorce his persona from the writing? Is there some trick I'm just not aware of? I feel the same way about Orson Scott Card too, I just can't read the books of a man who is so openly antagonistic to the gay, lesbian and bisexual communities.

I am unaware of his openly antagonistic attitude to the gay, lesbian and bisexual communities.

Can you enlighten me? I can honestly say I do not have warm feelings toward Mr. Card, but that is mainly because he is an a-hole, I don't like his writing, and his mom dresses him funny.

EDIT: to be clear, when I say "I am unaware of his openly antagonistic attitude to the gay, lesbian and bisexual communities." I am speaking of Ellison, not Card.

Additional EDIT: To be clearer, Ellison is manifestly an a-hole, I love his writing, and I do not imagine for a minute his mom would dare to dress him for fear of being sued.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Donnageddon

So you have read ""The Beast that Shouted Love at the Heart of the World"



I am unaware of his openly antagonistic attitude to the gay, lesbian and bisexual communities.

Can you enlighten me? I can honestly say I do not have warm feelings toward Mr. Card, but that is mainly because he is an a-hole, I don't like his writing, and his mom dresses him funny.

EDIT: to be clear, when I say "I am unaware of his openly antagonistic attitude to the gay, lesbian and bisexual communities." I am speaking of Ellison, not Card.

Additional EDIT: To be clearer, Ellison is manifestly an a-hole, I love his writing, and I do not imagine for a minute his mom would dare to dress him for fear of being sued.

I should clear that up, I didn't mean Ellison, I meant Card in reference to his openly hostile attitude toward the gay, lesbian and bi communities. As I don't want to be sued by Mr Ellison, let me make it clear, I know of no instance in which he has slurred or been openly hostile to the gay, lesbian and bisexual community.

I suppose what I don't understand is how you manage to divorce the two knowledge bases you have in the appreciation of Ellison's work. If you knew nothing about him and were reading his work, then I wouldn't see any conflict. But knowing that he's such an arsehole and so annoying, how do you not bring that with you to the reading? How do you just ignore that piece of information?

EDIT: saying all that I say about Ellison, I do have a grudging admiration for him, because at least he's not some faceless little corporate shill with no personality. He does take risks and that I do admire, even if I don't like his writing or his ridiculous anti-technology and sharing stances.

[Donnageddon]

Thanks for clearing up the "anti- GLB" question.

I suppose what I don't understand is how you manage to divorce the two knowledge bases you have in the appreciation of Ellison's work. If you knew nothing about him and were reading his work, then I wouldn't see any conflict. But knowing that he's such an arsehole and so annoying, how do you not bring that with you to the reading? How do you just ignore that piece of information?

EDIT: saying all that I say about Ellison, I do have a grudging admiration for him, because at least he's not some faceless little corporate shill with no personality. He does take risks and that I do admire, even if I don't like his writing or his ridiculous anti-technology and sharing stances.

I wrote a long response to this, but I pressed a "wrong button" on my netbook, and it is gone now.

Let me paraphrase my lengthy response: I LOVE Ellison's work, mostly his essays on movies, life, and writing. "An Edge To My Voice" got me through some insane $h!t in the 80's. His introductions to "Dangerous Visions" and "Again. Dangerous Visions" helped me learn how to introduce subjects in an entertaining, topical and respectful manner.

His fiction stories often fascinate me, infuriate me, and rarely leave me unthinking. "The Glass Teat" and "The Other Glass Teat" are seminal responses to bland entertainment and corporate misdirection.

The guy is sue-happy, He is not someone I would want to have as an enemy, or a close friend.

But he is a hell of a writer, humanist, anthologist and provocateur

I will take him for a night's read over most anyone.

But, that's just me. YMMV.

[Donnageddon]

Oh! I remember more now! "Anti-technology" You need to enlighten me on that. His works arre streaming in at Fictionwise.com at a bat-out-of-hell clip. I "own" a few bookshelves of his work now in eBook form.

As for "sharing", Mr Ellison shares nothing that comes from his labour. What do you want? To get sued?

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Donnageddon

Oh! I remember more now! "Anti-technology" You need to enlighten me on that. His works arre streaming in at Fictionwise.com at a bat-out-of-hell clip. I "own" a few bookshelves of his work now in eBook form.

As for "sharing", Mr Ellison shares nothing that comes from his labour. What do you want? To get sued?

LOL I meant his using an old Olympia typewriter instead of a computer, anti-technology slant. And I can sort of understand his 'wanting to be paid' because most of those rants are against the 'corporations' he worked for like MGM, Warner. What I never understood was his attacking the little guy with the same kind of fervour as he did the big guy, and also the whole litigious nature of the American law system is not something I can get behind.

Are they DRM-free at Fictionwise, if so I might give him another chance. I've been known to change my mind from time to time.

[Greg Anos]

If I can quote the book Oath Of Fealty (Jerry Pournelle/Larry Niven) - "There's a lot of ways of being human."

The Olympia typewriter. <shrug> Why do some people bowhunt in the age of high-powered rifles? It's a tool he likes and understands, so he can focus on what he's writing. Hey, I still run some Atari 800 games, 25 years old, on an emulator, because I like them....

As to liking/disliking the artist, vis-a-vis his/her creation. If I like a piece of art, should I change my mind about it, just because the artist is a deficit personality? The artist, no matter how deficit, did something that few can do, i.e. make a piece of art that I like. And that liking is for the piece of art, not the artist.

The creation of rock-n-roll put anger, rage, and other negative emotions front and center in music for the first time in popular music (I'm deliberately ignoring Wagner). At the time, a lot of people thought that was evil. Some still do. And it was certainly different... Ellison makes his art about pain, pure and unadulterated. I read his works very sparingly. But, like rock-n-roll, he has added a totally different color to the writing pallette, and I respect that. Few writers accomplish that, even among the scores of successful writers.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

If I can quote the book Oath Of Fealty (Jerry Pournelle/Larry Niven) - "There's a lot of ways of being human."

The Olympia typewriter. <shrug> Why do some people bowhunt in the age of high-powered rifles? It's a tool he likes and understands, so he can focus on what he's writing. Hey, I still run some Atari 800 games, 25 years old, on an emulator, because I like them....

As to liking/disliking the artist, vis-a-vis his/her creation. If I like a piece of art, should I change my mind about it, just because the artist is a deficit personality? The artist, no matter how deficit, did something that few can do, i.e. make a piece of art that I like. And that liking is for the piece of art, not the artist.

Should you? No. Will you, do you, that's my question and what I wonder about? I know I can't divorce the created from the creator, because I can't ignore information I have at hand. It taints my viewing/listening of any piece of work, just as if you add an extra ingredient to a sauce it changes the flavour. I was never a big fan of Ellison when I knew nothing of him, and I'm less of a fan the more I learn and the more I read. But I am always open to re-sampling work after awhile to see if I gain anything new from that work.

The creation of rock-n-roll put anger, rage, and other negative emotions front and center in music for the first time in popular music (I'm deliberately ignoring Wagner). At the time, a lot of people thought that was evil. Some still do. And it was certainly different... Ellison makes his art about pain, pure and unadulterated. I read his works very sparingly. But, like rock-n-roll, he has added a totally different color to the writing pallette, and I respect that. Few writers accomplish that, even among the scores of successful writers.

I'm not arguing against Ellison's reputation, I don't think anybody can cast doubt on his skills as a writer (whether I like his stories or not). I'm not actually arguing any point, except maybe that Ellison rubs me the wrong way and no matter how hard I try, I just can't see why that doesn't have the same effect on others.