puzzled by white space above chapter number

cybmole · 01-16-2011, 03:13 AM

on Kindle 3 - after cleaning & converting chapters - I sometimes get what seems to be a blank line above the chapter number i.e. pagebreak, then blank line, then chapter number.. in other books the chapter number is right at the top of the page as I prefer it.

looking at epub code, I am struggling to nail this. I look at what calibre tag goes with the chapter number then I look in the style sheet for its definition.

it seems that the ones with the extra white space are simply defined as "block" in the stylesheet - nothing else. the one that I like better have a more specific style definition.

- so it this a side effect of "block" or a kindle-specific interpretation issue ? I suspect the latter because I do not see any extra space when viewed in calibre viewer, yet I do see it on both K3 and in kindle for PC

sample code which has the whitespace issue

Code:

</head>

<body class="calibre" link="blue" style="" vlink="purple">
  <div class="calibre4" id="calibre_pb_6"></div>

  <h2 id="heading_id_3"><a class="calibre7" id="_Toc85056267"><span>1</span></a></h2>

styles:
..calibre3 {
font-size: 0.75em
}
.calibre4 {
display: block;
page-break-before: always
}
.calibre5 {
color: blue;
cursor: pointer;
text-decoration: underline
}
.calibre6 {
display: block;
font-size: 2em;
font-weight: bold;
margin-bottom: 0.67em;
margin-left: 0;
margin-right: 0;
margin-top: 0.67em;
page-break-before: always;
text-align: center
}
.calibre7 {
color: inherit;
cursor: inherit;
text-decoration: inherit

so calibre 4 followed by 7 is treated as "block"

is there a workaround. i.e. how can I alter these chapter heading styles/tags so that they appear right at the top of the page ?

jackie_w · 01-16-2011, 08:31 AM

In your html snippet the chapter heading is contained in <h2>...</h2> tags. Is there anything in the CSS which specifically references h2?

Also the <h2> tag is a child of <body class="calibre" ...> and so will (I think) inherit styling from entries in the CSS such as

Code:

body or
body.calibre or
.calibre

I'm not sure about the first 2 but there is almost certainly an entry in the CSS for .calibre.

You could try and fix it during the original conversion by putting something like

Code:

h2 {margin-top: 0;}

in the ExtraCSS box on the Look&Feel page.

cybmole · 01-16-2011, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackie_w

In your html snippet the chapter heading is contained in <h2>...</h2> tags. Is there anything in the CSS which specifically references h2?

Also the <h2> tag is a child of <body class="calibre" ...> and so will (I think) inherit styling from entries in the CSS such as

Code:

body or
body.calibre or
.calibre

I'm not sure about the first 2 but there is almost certainly an entry in the CSS for .calibre.

You could try and fix it during the original conversion by putting something like

Code:

h2 {margin-top: 0;}

in the ExtraCSS box on the Look&Feel page.

nice hypothesis but nothing in stylesheet for h2, and the calibre entry has margin top set to zero:
.calibre {
display: block;
font-size: 1em;
margin-bottom: 0;
margin-left: 5pt;
margin-right: 5pt;
margin-top: 0;
padding-left: 0;
padding-right: 0;
page-break-before: always

I'd like to nail the cause before getting into the workarounds. could be as simple as understanding "BLOCK" means to Kindle software ?

i google html block & find this:
display: block

display: block means that the element is displayed as a block, as paragraphs and headers have always been. A block has some whitespace above and below it and tolerates no HTML elements next to it, except when ordered otherwise

so kindle & sigil book view apply the above - hence white space above

now here is one with no white space

Code:

<body class="calibre" style="">
  <div class="calibre1" id="filepos960107">
 <p class="calibre7"><span class="calibre5"><span class="bold"><span class="calibre8">Chapter 5</span></span></span></p>

styles:
.calibre {
display: block;
font-size: 1em;
margin-bottom: 0;
margin-left: 0;
margin-right: 5pt;
margin-top: 0;
padding-left: 0;
padding-right: 0;
page-break-before: always
}
.calibre1 {
display: block
.calibre5 {
font-size: 1.125em
}
.calibre7 {
display: block;
margin-bottom: 0;
margin-left: 0;
margin-right: 0;
margin-top: 0;
text-align: center;
text-indent: 0
}
.calibre8 {
color: red

here, calibre7 has an explicit margin top 0 - I guess that over-rides the default ( inherited? )meaning of block, but if that's true, then why did it not apply in example 1 ?

jackie_w · 01-16-2011, 09:53 AM

I wonder if the heading tags, <h2> etc,have implied margin-top and margin-bottom if not explicitly set.

cybmole · 01-16-2011, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackie_w

I wonder if the heading tags, <h2> etc,have implied margin-top and margin-bottom if not explicitly set.

that may well be the answer

jackie_w · 01-16-2011, 10:01 AM

Manually entering the h2 {margin-top:0} line in the epub CSS may test the theory.

theducks · 01-16-2011, 10:57 AM

I see no useful purpose for that <div> above
so either blow that sucker away or add a margin: 0 to calibre1 (to override any defaults)

cybmole · 01-16-2011, 11:01 AM

didnt seem to but maybe I messed up the syntax

other entries in .css begin with a .
so should it look like this
.h2 {margin-top:0}
when I first added it, it picked up start & end * somehow

trying again...
no mobi in kindle for pc looks like before
- and toc has mysteriously vanished from the epub save -( probably a separate bug or settign screw-up - so converted the mobi back to epub to fix that.

jackie_w · 01-16-2011, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybmole

didnt seem to but maybe I messed up the syntax

other entries in .css begin with a .
so should it look like this
.h2 {margin-top:0}

No definitely h2 {margin-top:0} with no dot at the beginning.

If your CSS has

Code:

h2 {margin-top:0}

it will be applied to html with <h2> tags.

If it has

Code:

.h2 {margin-top:0}

It will be applied to html with class h2, e.g

Code:

<p class="h2"> or
<div class="h2">or 
<h1 class="h2">

Edit: Also be careful if you do conversions of conversions of conversions .... The CSS class names calibrenn may get renumbered each time

cybmole · 01-16-2011, 11:32 AM

ok - well iv'e fixed up my the chapter numbers as simple h2 tags in sigil , to avoid gettign side trcked by TOC issue

i thought the filepos did nothign but then i found the final xhtml contained a toc coded with links back to those filepos values, thus is was gettign out of step and confused as I messsed around.

so I ditched that toc completely, make the chapter number sino h2 tags & let calibre & sigil do trheir thing.

I now have workign toc in both epub & mobi.
& chapter start code like this

Code:

body class="calibre">
  <div class="calibre1" id="filepos20356">
    <h2 id="heading_id_2">3</h2>

I am 99% sure the div - filepos line is now totally redundant but I will leave it there for now.

to test the h2 - margin top idea i go to .css
and add your line:
@namespace h "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";
h2 {margin-top:0}
.bold {
font-weight: bold
}

save - convert to mobi .. and ...

no difference.

I reckon that kindle software insists on adding the space. when I@e not seen it it's because books had no chapter / header tags but just happened to have toc that worked

I think I will accept that the space is supposed to be there. note that I've learnt a bit about filepos & toc in the course of the afternoon, & quit while I'm ahead.

will be happy to read your feedback though

cybmole · 01-16-2011, 11:50 AM

PS once I start to dabble it's hard to stop! ...

if I want all my chapter header number to be centered on the kindle page what to I add to
<h2> chapter number </h2> to make that happen ?

& should things like that be done with find..replace.. or via stylesheets ?

well after googling it,
i guess putting this in the stylesheet is how it's done
H2 { text-align: center}

I could do that book by book, but is there any way to tell calibre to do it as part of a conversion - then save that in my general conversion preferences ? there is an input box called extra CSS but not a lot of guidance in the user manual ( it helpfully "advises" you to know what you're doing before trying to use this feature!

ldolse · 01-16-2011, 12:04 PM

Use the extra css box you found, just paste this in:
h2 {text-align: center}

If you want it for all books you convert just put it in your default settings for extra_css.

jackie_w · 01-16-2011, 12:20 PM

I'm not sure I can add anymore. My readers are Sony and PocketBook, so I read calibre-created epubs not mobi. Any experimentation I could do would not be relevant. Sorry

As for the centering stuff - what Idolse said. If you're going to add that line in your preferences you may as well change it to

Code:

h2 {text-align: center; margin-top: 0; padding-top: 0}

Then the whitespace above will be as small as you can get it.

cybmole · 01-16-2011, 02:20 PM

from an amzaon forum
quote
"This has a list of supported CSS properties
-->http://kindleformatting.com/book/fil...leHTMLtags.pdf

I know the list is not complete because it does not list margin-bottom and margin-left, which I have used. I don't think kindle supports margin-right and margin-top. "
end quote

centering stuff works fine, thanks, except that any book that I have converted once already has its own saved preferences, so adding extra css to default preferences does not get picked up - I have to keep adding it manually.

unless there's a way to wipe all those saved individual conversion preferences, most of which were set when i did'nt know what I should be doing!

update - google knew how:
"In any event, you can erase the saved conversion settings for books by selecting the books in question, opening 'edit metadata in bulk' (the E key if more than one book is selected), choosing 'remove stored conversion settings for selected books', and pressing OK."

01-16-2011, 03:13 AM	#1
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	puzzled by white space above chapter number on Kindle 3 - after cleaning & converting chapters - I sometimes get what seems to be a blank line above the chapter number i.e. pagebreak, then blank line, then chapter number.. in other books the chapter number is right at the top of the page as I prefer it. looking at epub code, I am struggling to nail this. I look at what calibre tag goes with the chapter number then I look in the style sheet for its definition. it seems that the ones with the extra white space are simply defined as "block" in the stylesheet - nothing else. the one that I like better have a more specific style definition. - so it this a side effect of "block" or a kindle-specific interpretation issue ? I suspect the latter because I do not see any extra space when viewed in calibre viewer, yet I do see it on both K3 and in kindle for PC sample code which has the whitespace issue Code: </head> <body class="calibre" link="blue" style="" vlink="purple"> <div class="calibre4" id="calibre_pb_6"></div> <h2 id="heading_id_3"><a class="calibre7" id="_Toc85056267"><span>1</span></a></h2> styles: ..calibre3 { font-size: 0.75em } .calibre4 { display: block; page-break-before: always } .calibre5 { color: blue; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: underline } .calibre6 { display: block; font-size: 2em; font-weight: bold; margin-bottom: 0.67em; margin-left: 0; margin-right: 0; margin-top: 0.67em; page-break-before: always; text-align: center } .calibre7 { color: inherit; cursor: inherit; text-decoration: inherit so calibre 4 followed by 7 is treated as "block" is there a workaround. i.e. how can I alter these chapter heading styles/tags so that they appear right at the top of the page ?

01-16-2011, 08:31 AM	#2
jackie_w Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,206 Karma: 16228558 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: UK Device: Kobo: KA1, ClaraHD, Forma, Libra2, Clara2E. PocketBook: TouchHD3	In your html snippet the chapter heading is contained in <h2>...</h2> tags. Is there anything in the CSS which specifically references h2? Also the <h2> tag is a child of <body class="calibre" ...> and so will (I think) inherit styling from entries in the CSS such as Code: body or body.calibre or .calibre I'm not sure about the first 2 but there is almost certainly an entry in the CSS for .calibre. You could try and fix it during the original conversion by putting something like Code: h2 {margin-top: 0;} in the ExtraCSS box on the Look&Feel page.

01-16-2011, 11:32 AM	#10
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	ok - well iv'e fixed up my the chapter numbers as simple h2 tags in sigil , to avoid gettign side trcked by TOC issue i thought the filepos did nothign but then i found the final xhtml contained a toc coded with links back to those filepos values, thus is was gettign out of step and confused as I messsed around. so I ditched that toc completely, make the chapter number sino h2 tags & let calibre & sigil do trheir thing. I now have workign toc in both epub & mobi. & chapter start code like this Code: body class="calibre"> <div class="calibre1" id="filepos20356"> <h2 id="heading_id_2">3</h2> I am 99% sure the div - filepos line is now totally redundant but I will leave it there for now. to test the h2 - margin top idea i go to .css and add your line: @namespace h "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"; h2 {margin-top:0} .bold { font-weight: bold } save - convert to mobi .. and ... no difference. I reckon that kindle software insists on adding the space. when I@e not seen it it's because books had no chapter / header tags but just happened to have toc that worked I think I will accept that the space is supposed to be there. note that I've learnt a bit about filepos & toc in the course of the afternoon, & quit while I'm ahead. will be happy to read your feedback though

01-16-2011, 11:50 AM	#11
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	PS once I start to dabble it's hard to stop! ... if I want all my chapter header number to be centered on the kindle page what to I add to <h2> chapter number </h2> to make that happen ? & should things like that be done with find..replace.. or via stylesheets ? well after googling it, i guess putting this in the stylesheet is how it's done H2 { text-align: center} I could do that book by book, but is there any way to tell calibre to do it as part of a conversion - then save that in my general conversion preferences ? there is an input box called extra CSS but not a lot of guidance in the user manual ( it helpfully "advises" you to know what you're doing before trying to use this feature! Last edited by cybmole; 01-16-2011 at 11:59 AM.

01-16-2011, 12:20 PM	#13
jackie_w Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,206 Karma: 16228558 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: UK Device: Kobo: KA1, ClaraHD, Forma, Libra2, Clara2E. PocketBook: TouchHD3	I'm not sure I can add anymore. My readers are Sony and PocketBook, so I read calibre-created epubs not mobi. Any experimentation I could do would not be relevant. Sorry As for the centering stuff - what Idolse said. If you're going to add that line in your preferences you may as well change it to Code: h2 {text-align: center; margin-top: 0; padding-top: 0} Then the whitespace above will be as small as you can get it. Last edited by jackie_w; 01-16-2011 at 12:24 PM.

01-16-2011, 09:53 AM	#4
jackie_w Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,206 Karma: 16228558 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: UK Device: Kobo: KA1, ClaraHD, Forma, Libra2, Clara2E. PocketBook: TouchHD3	I wonder if the heading tags, <h2> etc,have implied margin-top and margin-bottom if not explicitly set.

01-16-2011, 10:01 AM	#6
jackie_w Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,206 Karma: 16228558 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: UK Device: Kobo: KA1, ClaraHD, Forma, Libra2, Clara2E. PocketBook: TouchHD3	Manually entering the h2 {margin-top:0} line in the epub CSS may test the theory.

01-16-2011, 10:57 AM	#7
theducks Well trained by Cats Posts: 29,778 Karma: 54830978 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The Central Coast of California Device: Kobo Libra2,Kobo Aura2v1, K4NT(Fixed: New Bat.), Galaxy Tab A	I see no useful purpose for that <div> above so either blow that sucker away or add a margin: 0 to calibre1 (to override any defaults)

01-16-2011, 11:01 AM	#8
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	didnt seem to but maybe I messed up the syntax other entries in .css begin with a . so should it look like this .h2 {margin-top:0} when I first added it, it picked up start & end * somehow trying again... no mobi in kindle for pc looks like before - and toc has mysteriously vanished from the epub save -( probably a separate bug or settign screw-up - so converted the mobi back to epub to fix that.

01-16-2011, 12:04 PM	#12
ldolse Wizard Posts: 1,337 Karma: 123455 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Malaysia Device: PRS-650, iPhone	Use the extra css box you found, just paste this in: h2 {text-align: center} If you want it for all books you convert just put it in your default settings for extra_css.

01-16-2011, 02:20 PM	#14
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	from an amzaon forum quote "This has a list of supported CSS properties -->http://kindleformatting.com/book/fil...leHTMLtags.pdf I know the list is not complete because it does not list margin-bottom and margin-left, which I have used. I don't think kindle supports margin-right and margin-top. " end quote centering stuff works fine, thanks, except that any book that I have converted once already has its own saved preferences, so adding extra css to default preferences does not get picked up - I have to keep adding it manually. unless there's a way to wipe all those saved individual conversion preferences, most of which were set when i did'nt know what I should be doing! update - google knew how: "In any event, you can erase the saved conversion settings for books by selecting the books in question, opening 'edit metadata in bulk' (the E key if more than one book is selected), choosing 'remove stored conversion settings for selected books', and pressing OK." Last edited by cybmole; 01-16-2011 at 02:23 PM.

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